Lasers in the Gearhead universe?

[Anticheese]

Lasers would have to be the perfect cantidate for the LINE attribute, and yet only about 3 weapons have it - None of them lasers.

Light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second, not the speed of a BMX bike and yet the "Laser Cannon" shoots a projectile that moves slower than plasma! The only problem that I can see with having a staple weapon set to LINE is that it would go straight through a ton of things and become overpowered, but would it be possible to make a small patch that would improve all lasers by making them at least look like a LINE weapon? It may be a small thing but it would add a fair bit of flavour to the game.

Cheers!

[Sabin Stargem]

Maybe lasers might not pass through an object if it is of sufficient density or toughness?  It might go through a bunch of common helicopters or supply trucks easily, but when confronted with something that has thicker armor, it simply won't happen unless it hits an particurlarly weak section?

Perhaps an new property could be added, called <CUT THROUGH> that carries out this sort of thing.  B ut how would the value of this property be determined?  Maybe it could be like <CUT THROUGH H60) Meaning it would go through objects of 60 HP or less.

[Anticheese]

Insightful!

The way that GH reads weapontype tags is that one word and occasionally one number make up one "block" of weapontype, so it would read CUT THROUGH 60 as CUT and THROUGH 60, so how about PENETRATE 60?

I have to say, I really like that idea.

P.S, Consider registering an account!

[macksting]

Damnit. That was my post. Twice that's happened lately. Can we kill guest posting?

(Post fixed by moderator)


I suspect this has more to do with the breadth of the attack than its power. Often, in anime, the two are closely linked; a massive beam plays over the lead character, probably obliterating anything behind him/her while, somehow, the magical chi shield thing or the character's massive, rippling muscles allows said character to hold out against the brilliant white light.
However, I think this is, itself, indicative that the attacks with the Line attribute have more to do with breadth (area) than anything else.
After all, you can dodge a laser. Apparently, you can't dodge a line.

Coincidentally, yes, plasma would have a certain spread.

[Anticheese]

On the DoomRL boards we killed guest posting because I had to delete about 8 spam messages daily, It's not a fun job I can assure you.

I dont think that guest posts will get the axe, we have had some pretty good guest posters (Chief of all Sabin Stargem) and it encourages new members.

Tell you what I'll do though, I'll edit your post to have the guest post in it and delete the old one.

--

Quoting: Anonymous

After all, you can dodge a laser. Apparently, you can't dodge a line.

I cant see any reason why a successful dodge roll would have you or your mech jump a space to the side to dodge the blast, that's what reflexes are for.

[Epsilon]

If you're referring to the speed value of the weapon, I don't think that's a representitive of the actual speed of the projectile, it's more firing speed. A laser being a LINE in semi-unrealistic: large, heavy lasers take a lot of energy to fire once, let alone holding a stream.Plasma's different, at least in game terms. Example:

Warhammer 40,000. (groan!)

You have plasguns and lasguns in 40K. You also have plasma cannons and lascannons in 40K. The Lascannon has a strength of 9, AP 2 (might be AP 1, but I don't think so) on a 1-10 scale (VERY powerful, only one other race and reliably get a stronger weapon AFAIK). It's essentially an anti-tank gun. Fires normally, just like other weapons. Plasma cannons are strength 7, AP 3 (again, guessing, it's been a while). They're weaker, but they use blast templates. A plasma cannon can cover a wide area, whereas a lascannon fires a narrow beam. (Plasguns and lasguns are different from their big brothers, BTW: lower strength/AP and the plasgun dosen't use a template.)

However, Penetrate is a great idea. Obviously, it can only really work for some attacks, but, say if a creature is damaged badly enough, a beam from your laser rifle or a sniper rifle slug might just punch through it and attack the next in like (at reduced damage, of course).

[Anticheese]

Quoting: Epsilon

A laser being a LINE in semi-unrealistic: large, heavy lasers take a lot of energy to fire once, let alone holding a stream.

You are sort of getting the idea, What I thought of is having lasers just looking like a LINE weapon and stopping when they hit a target. Then Sabin comes along and suggests that some weapons might be able to punch through things, so I'm changing my view on it to "Lasers should act like a LINE weapon and punch through targets to continue the LINE on some occasions."

Quoting: Epsilon

However, Penetrate is a great idea. Obviously, it can only really work for some attacks, but, say if a creature is damaged badly enough, a beam from your laser rifle or a sniper rifle slug might just punch through it and attack the next in like (at reduced damage, of course).

Pretty much what I said above, except tidier.

What are the chances of this making it into a new release of GH?

Quoting: Epsilon

If you're referring to the speed value of the weapon, I don't think that's a representitive of the actual speed of the projectile, it's more firing speed.

No, I'm refering to people jumping out of the way of a LINE weapon as opposed to sucking it up without a chance of a dodge.

[macksting]

A laser weapon with Cleave or Great Cleave? I've heard of worse ideas.

If you're referring to the speed value of the weapon, I don't think that's a representitive of the actual speed of the projectile, it's more firing speed.

I believe he was referring to the speed of the projectile's movement on the screen, not the SPD stat of the weapon. Descent: Freespace fans will remember the ML-16's "laser" blasts slowly arcing across the sky...

No, I'm refering to people jumping out of the way of a LINE weapon as opposed to sucking it up without a chance of a dodge.

I think Epsilon was referring to your issues about how Line weapons instantly cross the screen, whereas laser weapons slowly (Descent: Freespace style) float across it.

I could be wrong, of course.

Anyway, as to the Dodge vs. Diminish matter, that being Hit vs. Area, I still think that Line clearly is indicative of area of the attack, and that a proper representation of what you're talking about would definitely have less in common with a Line attack and more in common with a D&D character using the Cleave feat. Dodgable. A Line attack can't be Dodged, per se, only reduced so greatly that it deals no damage, the same as a Blast. Or so I recall reading.
No laser of ordinary scale should be a Line attack. That would require a huge calibre of lens.
However, if this attack style were included, I'd like it if a dodged attack was treated the same as a penetrated attack.

[Joseph Hewitt]

The matter of laser travel time is an issue of presentation rather than mechanics; I'll see about improving that when I get around to upgrading the effect renderer.

As for shooting through one target and hitting another, or missing the first target and hitting another, I think those are good ideas. Actually I think the second point should apply to most weapons, not just lasers.

[Anticheese]

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

The matter of laser travel time is an issue of presentation rather than mechanics; I'll see about improving that when I get around to upgrading the effect renderer.

Cool.

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

As for shooting through one target and hitting another, or missing the first target and hitting another, I think those are good ideas. Actually I think the second point should apply to most weapons, not just lasers.

How would this be implimented?

How about if you miss, a thin cone is drawn behind the scenes and the projectile will move in that direction to the nearest viable target in the straightest line in front of the player?

Unfortunatly this means that combat will be longer (drawing the bullet longer), I just hope that GH2 will keep working as smoothly.

Would it be possible to port the fastupdate stuff found in GH2 to GH1?

[Joseph Hewitt]

Quoting: Anticheese

Would it be possible to port the fastupdate stuff found in GH2 to GH1?

Probably not ported, although GH1 may get its own makeover as well.

[Sabin Stargem]

I was thinking about the line-penetration effect, and was wondering if some of these attacks should degenerate for each object they hit?  For example, say an sniper-bullet is fired, and has an <PENETRATE D100> intrinsic, basically meaning that the bullet can go through objects of 100 health or less.  However, let's say it first hits an object worth 60 HP.  This reduces the penetration effect of the bullet, making it now worth 40 HP for penetration, and the next target is 50 HP.  The attack can't penetrate through that object, ending the line.

This can probably seperate the line between ordinary and special penetration weapons.  For example, an Hyper Beam Rifle would probably have an straight <PENETRATE 100>, allowing it to cut through a series buildings and weak mecha like butter with an heated butterknife.  Most weapons won't be able to do more than two penetrations in a single attack, since the penetration value typically weakens to the point where it isn't possible.

<PENETRATE Dx>:  Penetration, degenerating penetration value.
<PENETRATE x>   : Penetration, penetration value.

[macksting]

Question, though. Against unarmored targets, one would think a hollow-tip would be best; brutal and deadly against soft targets, low penetration but high transfer of energy. Fatal.
However, against armored targets, a hollow-point (or dum-dum, for that matter) is less useful than a jacketed or unaltered round, as its penetration is less.
Is there a weapon which can still penetrate armor while transferring a higher amount of damage to its target? 'Cause if I were a sniper, I'd want a single bullet to take out a single target, not to have it pass through that target to hit the guy behind him; I want that first bullet to have all its effect on the person I intend to kill!

[filibuster]

Quoting: macksting

Against unarmored targets, one would think a hollow-tip would be best; brutal and deadly against soft targets, low penetration but high transfer of energy. Fatal.
However, against armored targets, a hollow-point (or dum-dum, for that matter) is less useful than a jacketed or unaltered round, as its penetration is less.

Perhaps it could also consider the "Material" from which the target is made - some weapons work better against metal objects, other vs organic ones.

Could also apply to melee weapons, a chainsaw is less likely to damage a robot than a Laser Scythe.

[macksting]

Interesting idea.

OI! One of the nice things about video games is how much lies under the hood. I'm imagining having a Hardness stat in addition to damage-reduction and item SDC; a dumdum bullet would have low hardness but high damage, meaning that it would deal less damage against armor with high hardness, even if the armor's damage reduction was very low. Likewise, armor piercing or depleted uranium (or even diamond!) bullets would have high hardness, but might deal relatively little damage because, as they pass right through, they don't transfer much energy; they cut through all armor like butter, however, making them a fine equalizer at any calibre.

You can see why this is an unreasonable level of complication. I think the current system works fine, so ne'er mind.