Cyberware, Robots and Engineering

[alias]

Since it seems that we're currently in or near this section of the design process I'd like to ask about cyberelectronics, cyberarmor and cyberweapons.  In specific I've designed two which ought not be too controversial (like venom injectors or electrical discharge units in the hands may be, to say nothing of ranged weapons) which I figure would be great additions.
I'm also interested in robot parts and the question of biomonsters; I'd love to be able to make and abandon my own gremlins ala GH1 to repair mechas, as well as possibly tinker with the skill presets of biomonsters and perhaps make sentient biomonsters as well. Where's all the weird and crazy critters we need to fill out a hive of scum and villainy?

P.S.  Incidental overall plot question: I'd love to become the main villain and conquer some spinners myself, can this squeeze under the unlockable content heading?  I know building a strategy game onto the back of an RPG is a fair bit of work but I just think it'd be cool to do strategic level decisionmaking and engagements--I.E. launch the nukes and bioweapons pods as I pursue a vendetta against the Luna Overlord government for persecuting me while I was still a pirate chief....

Code text for two items which I'd like to see in the next version follows:
----------------------

StatModifier 40
Name <Dedicated AI Module>
desc <() An AI enabled computer implanted in the chest cavity and wired into the optical nerve, auditory nerve and brainstem. Very programmable and comes preenabled with networked PC functionality, memory-assist app and recording/playback features.  Multiple installed can work in parallel as well.>
Category <CYBERWARE>
Factions <GENERAL>
Type <CHARA CYBER>
Knowledge 2
Ego 1
Perception 1
Body -1
Memo
Phone
Email
News
Mass 1
legality 10
sub
   Computer 5
   mass -7
end

SkillModifier 15
Name <NanoGuardian Enhancement>
desc <(CIRCULATORY) Organ that produces and manages biotech nanomachines designed to take care of problems the human body has difficulty with itself and otherwise enhance general function.>
Category <CYBERWARE>
Factions <GENERAL>
CyberSlot <CIRCULATORY>
Type <CHARA CYBER>
SkillModCybertech
SkillModAmount 1
SkillModResistance
SkillModAmount 3
SkillModVitality
SkillModAmount 2
SkillModAthletics
SkillModAmount 1
SkillModConcentration
SkillModAmount 1
Mass 1
legality 10

[Crucifix]

Wow, coincidence. I talked about engineering cybernetics and biotech in my first thread just a few days back.
In the form it is now, Cyberware doesn't get the job done, and Biotech is borderline useless, and I don't think it's necessarily just a case of adding more items in the way they are now.

For Bioengineering, I'd certainly like to be able to use it for something, buying a Vat and creating a bioengineered army would be a nice start.

If sentient bioweapons start cropping up, this brings all kinds of potential plot drama - They're here, they're sentient, longer, better, faster, stronger, and they have biolasers, get used to it?

Hopefully when Mr Hewitt gets to the point he's thinking about what to do with PF: 0, he'll start up a discussion about it in the same vein as he has for other mechanics.

Also - Yeah, I'd love to conquer myself a spinner, whether through villainous or heroic methods.

[alias]

I'm also very confused about item bonuses for tools and computers: Do tools and computers need to be wielded/equipped, and do they all add up, or all tool bonuses add up plus highest software bonus, highest software and highest applicable tool bonus, or highest software OR tool bonus?  I'm trying to figure out just how far I can stretch my science bonus and how many tools/computers I should keep in inventory (provided carrying capacity is not a limited factor).
Without any resolution on that at all, this is my best guess for a new computer gizmo object to use with the new robotics question.
Oh, another question for people who hack source: Do shields count for armour points (regarding body requirement) or are they just DPs and mass?

----------------------------------

Tool 30 5
name <General Repair Engineering Assistance Tool v1.1>
desc <This was acronymed as a marketing effort, still this expensive device is expensive for good reason. Made mostly from a distributed computing polynode and a suite of solid state sensors. The current last word in tools for mobile repair, version 1.1 has similar expert systems for first aid and more involved emergency medicine now at the request of both paramedics and remotely-stationed technicians.>
memo
email
phone
news
legality 0
sub
   Computer 15
   mass -24
   sub
      Software 3
      name <Mecha Triage Diagnostics>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 15
      
      Software 3
      name <Emergency Medicine Directions>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 16
      
      Software 3
      name <First Aid Directions>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 20
      
      Software 3
      name <Biotechnology Suite>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 22
      
      Software 3
      name <Basic Maintenance Expert System>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 23
      
      Software 3
      name <Cybernetic Diagnostics>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 24
      
      Software 3
      name <CAD/CAM Mecha Module>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 31
      
      Software 3
      name <Security Auditing And Repair>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 32
      
      Software 3
      name <Image Recognition Identification Catalogue>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 37
      
      Software 3
      name <Robotics Identification And Troubleshooting>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 38
   end
   
   PowerSource 8
   mass -14
end

[Frumple]

Mm... something to note with that. Classes and whatnot don't go over 10 for tools and crap, s'near as I can tell. Slap that into one of the PC_* files and check the design viewer, to see fer yourself.

Also, the name is... sillily long. The ascii version, at least, can't even display the full name (on my comp, that is.) Amusing acronym, though. Why not just call it the GREAT v1.1 and give the full name in the desc (which also cuts off for me, heh.)?

Anyway, tools, I think, need to be equipped to get the boost from them (can totally be wrong about that, of course.). Computers can be either, but I vaguely remember seeing a post saying they act differently depending on if they're equipped or not. Searching the forum should pull something up, s'far as that goes.

[alias]

Point about the name, GREAT v1.1 would be better.
I'n not gonna hack source or try and guess if what the design viewer reads matches what the game code does with an object description, and someone ought to shove the information about tool and other item specs into the GearHead wiki in a GH2 design guides section--if I have to go digging through a forum to possibly find something it isn't documented, and I can't document what I don't know.
Mostly, I'd be sad if I can't make this computer work as intended because it's supposed to be a really expensive huge brick that's so useful that you want to wield it despite huge penalties.  This is supposed to force people to have a horrible conflict between desire to avoid penalizing body and speed stat while still really wanting to wield one or two of this thing.  The only reason I don't make it weigh more is comparison with similar items.
I suppose if I were to cut it down a bit as a minimum it should hold the medical skills, cybertech, mecha repair, general repair, biotechnology and code breaking as well as a slot for one more +3 software and the rest of it provided in a quick-loader/deloader for that one slot--emergency repair powers first.  According to the arithmetic that would be 8 x 3 = 24 ZeG which is 4 ZeG more than 10 computer can give.  Arrrrgh!

Digression to tools in general:
On further consideration I think the issue of sanity and playability for the tools/repair fuel/computers system is a very hard question.  If we keep acrobatics ribbons in game like they are now, for instance, I would suggest there should probably be mecha-scale razor ribbons to affect acrobatics at SF:2 and that the SF:0 ribbons should probably be rendered irrelevant for acrobatics while piloting, but for other things SF:0 items may or may not still be useful while piloting inside a mech depending on exactly how the mech's interface works.  The question of if the ribbons should give a raw plus to acrobatics or instead a plus to performances of acrobatics skill is one I am deliberately not answering here because I don't know if we are ever going to have acrobatics performances in game.
Failing to use adequate tools is probably better for giving a minus instead with bonuses being rare and appropriate only to very special doohickeys, for the sake of both simplicity and balancing.  Repair-fuel "toolkits" is a last-generation concept that may be working against us having a coherent system here and we should either consider going back to it without breaking it via special tools (and allowing toolkits to be refilled when empty instead of just going poof so you can keep ones with pluses) or reworking it all instead--I was led to this confusion by asking the question, "Why wouldn't that 11k+ top of the line mech repair kit I just bought have a good wrench in it?  If it does, and it really ought to at that price, then why would wielding another wrench give me another +1 over using that kit?"
Overall, I think design goals should include having the fewest number of items cluttering inventory to sort through and swap on/off.  I want to put that wrench in the toolkit and have a +1 without having to waste time explicitly wielding and unwielding my combat set since that's a not-fun thing to spend time on.
This minimal items goal is doubly important in the current version because the item and part handling systems currently make me look through tiny windows at my lists despite my setting the config settings to 130x60 and the actual window size to bigger on my laptop.  I also gripe that this is made doubly painful because I have no pageup/pagedown shorthands or sorting features besides alphabetical inventory mode (which dumps me at the top of the list after each item affected) to help me find what I'm looking for on--for instance--the undrivable Mebsy pile I've stacked all my interesting parts on.  I'm sure these last interface issue complaints are already on the list of things to worry about though--much like the fact that it's easy to lose track of which way your mech is pointing and where it is in graphical mode without zooming in on it.  (I want a nice, visible arrow or even a quarter and semicircle that shows which way I'm pointing and what/where I can shoot.)

[Frumple]

A few things in response:
What the design viewer says, goes. If it doesn't work there, it doesn't work. Similarly, what it displays is what the game reads, simple as that... though I only say this with 95% surity. Still pretty sure about that.

As for weight, the whole thing only weighs in a 1.5kg -- there's clips that weigh more than that, heh. Each point of minus on those mass modifers drops the weight by a half kg. The class 10 comp (which is what that class 15 defaults to and where the majority of the weight would come from for this thing) only weighs 10k, and you're fudging it down a full 12 kg. It's actually weightless, heh. Similarly, the battery's only one kg as is -- it would be the most efficient SF:0 power source in the game (barring further mods, of course) if yeh got it out of that thing.

Last bit, it looks like a comp bottoms out at 6 softwares installed, whatever their zeg costs happens to be. You could, however, just put in another computer component... and another, and another and another and... anyway, two comp 6s would fit your intended loadout just fine.

---

As for the interface in general, it's always been a bit clunky for me, but I always assumed that was a limitation of the code more than anything else (check the old-ish item stacking thread, ferex). Easy way to re-size the ascii window to fit more info (without wrestling with my PoS OS, may Vista burn for all eternity), resort the pack, and a few other things would nice, heh, but GH's still got a fairly nice interface compared to some things out there, yanno'?

Anyway, hope at least some of this helps yeh out. If anyone notices something glaringly mistaken, correct me post haste, heh. It's been a bit since I monkied around with GH...

[Crucifix]

Quoting: Frumple

As for weight, the whole thing only weighs in a 1.5kg -- there's clips that weigh more than that, heh.

Don't get me started. Pin rifles are 2 kg worth of gun, 7 kg ammo clip. Why can't that get shoved in a backpack Vulcan Raven style? Heck, I'd be happy to switch it up with some clips with 90 pins in at 1.5kg...


Given my attempts with Performance, I'm reasonably sure possession of a tool is adequate, and that only the highest score is used. This is borne out with code breaking too.

If you lack any tool, you suffer a penalty, if you have a tool in your inventory, you suffer no such penalty; I admit I never checked much closer to observe whether you actively get the bonus, but I'm reasonably sure my perform results mit Kithara were better than my results with a Tamborine.

The maximum possible bonus is used, I'm almost positive they don't stack. Can't say the same about software, but that's changing in the next version or so anyway.

Of course, someone less lazy than I could test all this with a starting character by starting with Perform 5 at Athera, then going out and picking up a tamborine, keyboard and violin, then playing with all of them on the ground, with just X in inventory, with X wielded, the same with Y and Z, then with XYZ all in inventory and finally with Y and Z wielded, checking in Roll information for differences.

[EarthquakeDamage]

Quoting: Crucifix

Given my attempts with Performance, I'm reasonably sure possession of a tool is adequate, and that only the highest score is used. This is borne out with code breaking too.

Actually, that only works for skills that "require" (they don't, technically, but you get a big skill penalty) tools.  Namely, Code Breaking and Performance.  The others should require you to hold the tool in your hand, though last I knew there was a bug whereby the game failed to acknowledge you were holding it.

[Crucifix]

Hah. Nothing like consistency in a game system. Good to know my character's too much of a twit to pull out his magnifying glass where necessary.

[Joseph Hewitt]

How about this for a tool use idea: skills which require activation can use tools from the general inventory, while skills that are always active require the PC to equip the tools. That seems pretty intuitive to me, and makes a lot more sense than the current system.

[EarthquakeDamage]

I like it.  Mechanically inclined characters could wear big honkin' goggles that boost Insight (like the Data Visor, only tool instead of software).  That'd be pretty fitting for that character archetype.

[alias]

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

How about this for a tool use idea: skills which require activation can use tools from the general inventory, while skills that are always active require the PC to equip the tools. That seems pretty intuitive to me, and makes a lot more sense than the current system.

Very simple and consistent except for deciding if skills like insight/awareness for searching (press S) and doing mecha engineering come under player activated.  It would be nice to have a "toolbox" container item in which you could put all your explicit tools so that you can scroll through the inventory more easily and maybe camouflage a contraband item or two--this could be a good place to reuse your new inventory-software-handling code.
The last question to simplify the system is adjusting repairfuel if necessary.  It isn't explicitly necessary but I propose for consideration making repairfuel refillable, that it doesn't go poof when used up, and making a general experience point cutoff point per repair after which additional points earned from success are converted into extra points of repairs done without cost of fuel.  If you don't risk ruining things when you repair them perhaps 25 XP gain tops per repair attempt?  I seem to remember that you got one general pool XP point per point of repairs done and that it wasn't that hard to get more than this with good skill and stat, making it nearly as awesome as old performance for XP gain (although it always cost more money, time and MP than getting shoppies to fix it which ideally should not be so).

Regarding software, I think I figured out a fair idea of what you should do regarding skills that handle it:
We are n-years into the future here--operating in a world in which technological development is capable of building many types of simple scripts, expert systems and intelligence, and other levels of systemic logic in between.  The reason why science and pragmatism go so hand-in-hand is because science is all about investigating, modelling, understanding, and affecting the world in a reproduceable manner.  Thus it follows that science would become our programming/computer usage skill.
If you didn't catch the intuitive reasoning here let me try to explain: This is because programming in this world isn't so much library manipulation and bug-scanning as it is nowadays but much higher level since they've progressed several iterations past the LISP specification for ultimate high level language definition (allow me my fantasies).  In this fantastic world the active constraints are understanding what you're trying to program about in a comprehensible, consistent and applicable way... and effort.
What accepting this logic and following it in the system means I haven't worked out yet but this lets you go back to the discussion ideas about a programming skill and a limit for how much software you can use more productively than arguing over if there should be a programming skill since you now have one (and a half with code breaking too).
Alternatively you could KISS and leave well enough alone though, there's lots of content to write and I can only help so-much myself with that.

[alias]

Oh, and here's a moderately improved item.  Please flay the code as necessary, critics and debuggers.  I am considering that it should be bigger and making it so by increasing the size of the software to +4 per skill and splitting the code up into a 6 computer for mecha repair, engineering and robotics (autonomous mechanics systems module), the life sciences subcomputer being sized up to 8 and another 6 computer with general repair, insight and code breaking for a general repair and troubleshooting module (general repair and troubleshooting).
I'm working with the design assumption that the computing hardware is the same stuff that the distributed communications hubs/processing of the phone/email/web/etc stuff in spinners is made out of, which would be heavy-duty but still optimized for mass/volume somewhat since they stick this stuff in the walls instead of building server farms generally.  Should it be heavier, and should it be hardened?

------------------------

Tool 30 5
name <G R E A T v1.1>
desc <General Repair Engineering Assistance Tool, this was acronymed as a marketing effort yet is expensive for good reason. The current last word in software tools for mobile repair, version 1.1 includes the life sciences module that was previously sold as a separate product.>
memo
email
phone
news
legality 0
sub
   Computer 9
   mass -9
   sub
      Software 3
      name <Mecha Triage Diagnostics>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 15
      
      Software 3
      name <Basic Maintenance Expert System>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 23
      
      Software 3
      name <CAD/CAM Mecha Module>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 31
      
      Software 3
      name <Security Auditing And Repair>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 32
      
      Software 3
      name <Image Recognition Identification Catalogue>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 37
      
      Software 3
      name <Robotics Identification And Troubleshooting>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 38
   end
   
   Computer 6
   mass -6
   sub
      Software 3
      name <Emergency Medicine Directions>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 16
      
      Software 3
      name <First Aid Directions>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 20
      
      Software 3
      name <Biotechnology Suite>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 22
      
      Software 3
      name <Cybernetic Diagnostics>
      S_SkillBoost
      Stat 2 24
   end
   
   PowerSource 10
   mass -10
end

[Jafet]

LISP? Given the current intellectual state of spinners and their societies, I would say that your typical soft gets written in some next-gen FORTRAN. If you're lucky enough to be working for the Red Mask Raiders of Bargol fame, they might let you try FORTH...

[alias]

....It's a tragic future dystopia of rampant DRM and it's my mission to free the source?