GH2 Spaceship Mechanics

[Joseph Hewitt]

Rather than continue this diversion in the Jagged Alliance thread, I've decided to spin it off here.

GH2 will feature spaceships. The PC will be able to buy one or may be gifted one as part of a story/quest/faction reward. The ship will be a scene (or, in the case of really big ships, several scenes) unto itself. The PC will generally enter the ship either when going into space or going to the world map.

The PC's ship will not generally take part in combat, though enemy ships may be featured as targets. If the PC has left a lanemate behind to man the guns (see ship customization below) then in certain scenarios there may be support fire from the ship outside of the map. The PC's ship may also be incidentally used in certain scenarios that may not be entered without a spaceship, i.e. assaulting an enemy base and you need the ship for covering fire.

A ship will allow the player to travel between worlds. The PC will have to pay for fuel/reaction mass, however.

A ship can be used to hold all your stuff. It will also carry all of your lancemates. I don't know whether to limit the number of mecha/lancemates a ship can carry by mecha bays/living quarters or not.

You should be able to customize a ship. There will be several rooms in the ship which can be converted in different ways; you may be able to add cannons (as mentioned above), a mecha bay (with MechEng gear), a meditation chamber (with shrine), a laboratory, and so on.

Certain ships should come with a crew (doctor, mechanic, etc). They will usually stay on board the ship and provide services similar to the ones found in town, but can also be asked to join the PC as lancemates. If a crew member dies it should be possible to hire a new crew member of the appropriate type.

A ship's mecha bays may include a quick change system for setting your mecha's equipment right before charging into battle. This idea is lifted directly from Gundam Seed and Zoids. I think it would be neat to save different configurations for your mecha and select one based on the enemy being fought; in order for this to be useful, I'll have to work to give the combat system a better paper-rock-scissors dynamic.

What do you think?

Edit- Two more things. There should also be NPC ships that the PC might get assigned to as part of the core story, or that he might visit independantly of the core story. Maybe over the course of the story the PC could become the captain of the ship, thereby changing it from a NPC vessel to the PC's own vessel. Problem- it's hard to feel like you're on a ship mission when the PC can blast off to the world map and leave the ship behind anytime he wants. Maybe if the PC is on a ship as part of the core story access to the world map will be disabled.

On Earth there may be sea ships and on Mars there may be air ships, both  of which will act mostly like space ships except they can't be used to travel between worlds and may have additional restrictions.

[Phil Munoz]

That sounds really good.  If you have a good size ship, you can probably play gearhead as some sort of merchant, travelling between worlds to trade stuff.

[macksting]

I don't know about everybody else, but when I'm part of a faction, I percieve faction mission e-mails as almost being a call from God. Unless I feel I've got pretty darn good reason (like, "I'm five feet from Ladon," "The missions are becoming utterly impossible," "I'm nearly two hundred meters below the surface and I still haven't found that **** rod," or something like that,) I report in and take the mission. This especially applies if it happens that the mission would serve some other purpose.
Those faction rewards are really, really cool, after all.

This brings up something else. Any chance you could toss in a "Delegate Authority" option when a faction wants you to take on a mission? Have your slightly less adept but possibly superequipped (depending on how you keep them) underlings try to take on an opponent, with a bonus based on their Leadership skills? This might also mean that, when you have lancemates or are part of a larger combat, your own ejection doesn't guarantee mission failure.
See, that's something that always bothered me in X-Wing and even my favorite in the genre, Descent: Freespace. Although at least Freespace had the possibility of plot arcs even after failing primary objectives (usually not the case, but it could happen), the destruction of the lead character's ship (and probable ejection) invariably meant mission failure, even if your entire wing of ace pilots was doing fine up till then.
While this might remove a little bit of the player-centric appeal, it would accentuate the character's leadership qualities or rank, encourage the PC to lead and equip quite the death brigade, and would allow you (at the cost of gaining almost no faction XP) to go about your business elsewhere, especially if you are neck deep in dungeon and thirty feet from your goal. It might also allow you to cap the amount of XP you would spend on faction-specific skills like Mecha Pilotting, Mecha Gunnery, or Code-Breaking if your fellow characters were better at it.

Of course, if one were to do this, it might be best to restrict the capabilities of NPC recruitables to lower skill levels, just so that you have room for concern.
Better yet, it's actually possible that your lancemate, in losing, might die... reducing your reputation, as well, because you sent them off on that mission. "I don't wanna be her lancemate. It's dangerous."

[draconuszero]

I like the idea of having the cannon do damage as usual, but would there be a chance of them missing or even hitting your own people if the prereq skills are not high enough?

I like the module system as well, but I hope there is a limit to the number of modules you can have.  There could be the possibility of upgrading the ship to make it a higher class ship with more space however, up to a limit.

Quoting: macksting

This brings up something else. Any chance you could toss in a "Delegate Authority" option when a faction wants you to take on a mission?

That would be interesting, especially if you want to train your lower ranking members.  Wouldn't be fun to see your shiny new Zerosaiko platoon get demolished because of inexperience of the recently promoted commander though, but it wouldn't be your life on the line though.


Suggestion on possible missions:  
1) Planet Defense: Your ship have been hired or assigned to defend a planet and you have to weaken the attackers in space while the land forces do will deal with those that pass through your line.  The more damage you deal to the attackers as well as the strength of the land defenders will determine the outcome of the planet's loyalties.

2) Prototype mecha escort: Bring some prototypes from point A to B, with the probability of getting attacked by stronger than normal raiders who want the specs of the mecha as well as the mecha themselves.

3) The mutiny: Have incredibly bad renown or relations with your crew/lance, and they will call for a mutiny.  a) You are in the ship annd are to defeat the mutineers scatterred around in your ship to regain control of the ship, without the said crew onboarde afterwards.  b) They mutineed while you were on land and are slowly leaving the area.  You and those loyal to you are to infiltrate the ship and eliminate those that went against you.

Overall, I'd like something like #3 as a sort of mission or other, because  inevitably there will be conflicts.  Actually, it would be intersting to just see any sort of betrayal mission, where it can be either due to conflicts or possibly even the said betrayer was hired to infiltrate your group and kill you.

[macksting]

For that matter, an Element featuring one crewmember suddenly turning on you with a gun. A brief combat results in a death speech. This Element would invariably either be a launchpoint for a whole quest, or a hazard/clue spawned by an existing quest or enmity, the death speech either saying "turn back or else..." or saying "I've failed you, my master..." or something akin.

...

Yeah, that's pretty off-topic, but it does point out that a high-rank character would become a target, especially in a place that's supposed to be a secure home base. (After all, some mutinies are the result of mixed loyalty.)

I really like the airships idea, although I'd hate to see a fight between a zeppelin and a martian mecha.

[Anticheese]

Yay for hydrogen.

Anyhow,

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

You should be able to customize a ship. There will be several rooms in the ship which can be converted in different ways; you may be able to add cannons (as mentioned above), a mecha bay (with MechEng gear), a meditation chamber (with shrine), a laboratory, and so on.

The problem with a lab and a shrine is that they will undoubtabaly be overlooked by most people; Shrines only give about 50-100 XP on a successful mysticysm (sp?) roll and laboratories only give a bit of skill XP, What can be done to make them more useful?

As for mecha bays, Could we actually get to see the mech in the bay when we enter the room? It might take up about 3X4 or something like that, but I reckon it would look really nifty.

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

A ship can be used to hold all your stuff. It will also carry all of your lancemates. I don't know whether to limit the number of mecha/lancemates a ship can carry by mecha bays/living quarters or not.

You may as well, it gives incentive to upgrade.

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

A ship's mecha bays may include a quick change system for setting your mecha's equipment right before charging into battle. This idea is lifted directly from Gundam Seed and Zoids. I think it would be neat to save different configurations for your mecha and select one based on the enemy being fought; in order for this to be useful, I'll have to work to give the combat system a better paper-rock-scissors dynamic.

I know that in Zoids the only thing the equipment changer did was put on a new suit of armour, but what more can the changer do? I'd like to hear some suggestions on this..

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

Certain ships should come with a crew (doctor, mechanic, etc). They will usually stay on board the ship and provide services similar to the ones found in town, but can also be asked to join the PC as lancemates. If a crew member dies it should be possible to hire a new crew member of the appropriate type.

Three options I can see here..

1) They provide services for free (After all, their services dont cost much and they are working for you)

2) They provide service at a discount

3) Their service fees are their wages

I dont like number three, But at the same time it would be a bit of a pain for the player if (s)he has to dish out wages to the crew on a regular basis. I really dont want to see that happening.

[Tung Nguyen]

Labs and shrines could be integrated with more useful utilities, or made more useful themselves, e.g. labs could be used to design things, shrines could be used for identifying holy items or sensing danger.

Mecha bays showing the mecha as large multitile objects would be cool, like the little ships in DeadCold. There would need to be a uniform method of handling them so that they work in both ASCII and OpenGL modes.

Wages for crews seems to be the most believeable option, though it's not like the PC should have to walk up to each crew member and pay them manually, that would be a chore. An easy once a week/day billing option would work better than that. Refusing or being unable to pay would result in one or more of the crew members leaving the boat at the next port.

Furnishings and decorations for the rooms would be a nice addition.

[dPB]

How about aquiring a ship via piracy? This also gives ship defense missions against maurading pirates who are after your own ship.

[macksting]

Notably, a risk even for a full military carrier. What pirate wouldn't want the Enterprise?
"KHAAAAAAAAN!"

Frankly, I'd really dig having access to yet another shrine. That would rock. Maybe, with a sufficiently high roll ("There is a holy essence to this which you feel must be captured; you would like to meditate on this. Perhaps you should build a shrine."), you can create a Star or Space Shrine, which, in combination with other shrines elsewhere, gives a slight bonus on top of the usual bonuses.

[draconuszero]

Quoting: Tung Nguyen

Wages for crews seems to be the most believeable option, though it's not like the PC should have to walk up to each crew member and pay them manually, that would be a chore. An easy once a week/day billing option would work better than that. Refusing or being unable to pay would result in one or more of the crew members leaving the boat at the next port.

That, combined with my suggestion of possibly being able to run a trade business that gives you a steady source of income, would make for an intersting game, especially for thge businessman/trader class players.

[Anticheese]

The problem with trade is that it sucks up time which makes the challenges tougher, And GH is a very very story orientated game and missions make a huge part of it. Elite style trading just wont work.

Mission trading and the membership of a guild of merchants on the other hand might work out, there just needs to be variety in the missions (I.E Please get me 10 Rats Tails from City 42 wont work, It needs story)

[Joseph Hewitt]

I think trading would probably work better with spaceships than it does with mecha- You can't have a ship delivered or brought along on the shuttle, ships could carry the mega-ton cargoes that would make trading worthwhile, it will cost money to move ships around so there's an element of resource management...

I think ships should be one of the next things that I add. It would be good if I have all the fundamentals of the game, at least in basic form, before I add too much content.

[Drakeson]

With access to a whole engineering bay you could do something which I have always wanted. Use your skills on a piece of mecha equipment and lengthen it's range/damage/ROF etc, so you don't have to buy chimenteros to get L13 hovers or longmen to get decent long range lasers. you could even have your artillery skill influencing your roll mod to make it "just right" for your char. Also a hydro lab could make food, wine, shrooms etc, which could then be sold. For that matter if you want ships you could have land castles where you have plebs doing the hard yacka and you have to manage conflicts which arise. Asteroids? I think you will need a shell over the top of the game to handle all the politics and comerce issues so you don't need to run all over the place. Mind you I like the original game heaps and if all this stuffs it then it's not worth it.

[draconuszero]

Quoting: Drakeson

Also a hydro lab could make food, wine, shrooms etc, which could then be sold. For that matter if you want ships you could have land castles where you have plebs doing the hard yacka and you have to manage conflicts which arise. Asteroids? I think you will need a shell over the top of the game to handle all the politics and comerce issues so you don't need to run all over the place. Mind you I like the original game heaps and if all this stuffs it then it's not worth it.

You completely lost me at this point...

Quoting: Drakeson

With access to a whole engineering bay you could do something which I have always wanted. Use your skills on a piece of mecha equipment and lengthen it's range/damage/ROF etc, so you don't have to buy chimenteros to get L13 hovers or longmen to get decent long range lasers. you could even have your artillery skill influencing your roll mod to make it "just right" for your char.

Thats just overkill...  Those mecha are pretty much near-end/endgame mecha and are pretty deadly because of that reason.  As stated in the mecha tune-up thread by anti-cheese's post, being able to create such high-level equipment would just upset the balance and challenge of the game.

[Anticheese]

Quoting: draconuszero

Thats just overkill... Those mecha are pretty much near-end/endgame mecha and are pretty deadly because of that reason. As stated in the mecha tune-up thread by anti-cheese's post, being able to create such high-level equipment would just upset the balance and challenge of the game.

Yup, I'm fine with minor tweaks but anything more than that will indeed screw the game over.

Seriously, C13 hover jets being made out of C7's for minimal cost will just stuff things up, The reason why the game (by default) only goes up to C7 is because they are just too damn powerful, If you want to make super powerful equipment just go to \GearHead\Design\Mek_Equipment and use the powers of logic.

Quoting: Drakeson

you could even have your artillery skill influencing your roll mod to make it "just right" for your char.

Yup, Lost me there..Sounds like he wants your character to be able to use the skill of artillery to "Sight in" guns.

Quoting: Drakeson

Also a hydro lab could make food, wine, shrooms etc, which could then be sold.

Oh yay, Farming.

Come on, think about it! Who would buy shrooms, Its more economic to farm on terra firma than spaca shipa and meals only cost between $20 and $500 anyway! What makes you think that you can make money by having an in flight food service?

Quoting: Drakeson

For that matter if you want ships you could have land castles where you have plebs doing the hard yacka and you have to manage conflicts which arise.

<MESSAGE FROM TRANSLATOR: SUBJECT CONTAINS MANY LINGUAL ANOMALIES, ACCURACY OF TRANSLATION: UNKNOWN.>

If you want ships, Perhaps you can even build your own castles where you have the poor people doing the hard work and you have to deal with other castle owners who wish to do war with you.
--

No fricking way, This is NOT what Gearhead is about. If you want to play that kind of game go and buy a copy of Stronghold or Civilization.

Quoting: Drakeson

asteroids? I think you will need a shell over the top of the game to handle all the politics and comerce issues so you don't need to run all over the place

<TRANSLATION> I think the game should have a political and economic overlay so that you dont need to do squat.

What the hell?

We dont need a political and economic simulator! Wrong game to port it into, Really wrong genre.

The way it is set up at the moment, Factions are either allied with each other, neutral, at war or whatever. There is your political stuff there, And if it were put in...

A: Who really cares?

B: That kind of crap is too much work for too little result, Plus it would screw the game 12 times over, Aegis Overlord making an alliance with the L5 council over a trade agreement? No thanks.

Quoting: Drakeson

Mind you I like the original game heaps and if all this stuffs it then it's not worth it.

Oh thats good, Now please post some suggestions that are both worded in a manner people can understand and are sensible suggestions that will fit in with the GH universe, style of play, genre and so on.