General Category > Plot and Game World

Sentient robots in the GH universe

(1/9) > >>

Joseph Hewitt:
Edit- Fixed the title. What the heck is a "fobot" anyhow?

I'm splitting this off from the "Unlockable Faction Mecha" thread over in Game Mechanics.

Quoting: peterThat actually seems like a bit of an inconsistency in the GearHead universe. If you can build sentient robots after a one-day multi-million credit training course, why aren't there more sentient robots running around. Once you know how to build one, you can do it in less than an hour (two minutes, actually) and for a cost of less than 10000 credits. The corporations have the resources to make tons of them.
In the GearHead universe, there's nothing that a strong AI can do that a weak AI can't do better. Corporations (and universities, and governments...) use weak AIs for many different purposes but there simply isn't much economic incentive to build sentient strong AIs. Consequently, most of the strong AIs that exist were built by either researchers or hobbyists.

Mechanical weak AIs are not frequently used as mecha pilots for a number of reasons, including the fact that they can be undependable, don't react well to new situations, may be restricted by law in certain areas, and of course there's always the chance they'll run amok or otherwise cause huge amounts of damage/public relations nightmares.


After showing a robot he created with stats in the 40-80 range and skills mostly in the high 20s
Do robots this far superior to humanity exist in the Gearhead universe?
That far superior to humanity? Says the man with the Robotics score of 40...

No, robots that good don't exist in the GH universe. In fact, you'll notice that there are no NPCs with skills much higher than 15. That's what I consider to be the highest "natural" skill value. The highest value I ever got personally was a Mecha Artillery score of 17, once.

I guess this means it's too cheap, quick, and easy to boost your skills to mega-epic levels. Maybe I should apply a level cap, or increase the XP requirements dramatically after skill level 15.

The best robots that exist in the game world should be about the same level as those that can be built with a robotics skill of 15-20, which looking at your results are much tougher than I had thought.

Did the corps build some and then find out that the robots didn't want to do their evil deeds for them? So the robots ran off and joined the Cyclopses (what is the plural of Cyclops? Joseph, aren't you an English teacher?) Or were they able to make them sentient but aligned favourably for the corp and willing to work for not much pay? They don't eat, they don't sleep (but neither does anybody else...), and they're super tough. Why aren't all corporate pilots super-robots?
I use cyclops as both singular and plural. According to the dictionary, the plural should be cyclopes. I think I'll stick with cyclops.

Non-sentient robots do most of the heavy work in the civilized parts of the GH universe, sometimes with human operators and sometimes without. There may be laws similar to those found in Mega-City One, where it is illegal to hire a robot for a human job and also illegal to hire a human for a robot job.

Sabin Stargem:
In Isaac Asimov's books, robots typically follow three, perhaps four cardinal rules.  They have loopholes, but they cover the most basic principles where the dangers of robotic AI is concerned.

Rule One  :  An robot may not harm nor kill a human.
Rule Two  :  An robot must obey human orders.
Rule Three:  An robot must preserve itself, unless this conflicts with rule one and rule two.

I imagine that if such rules were to be implemented into actual robots, that there would be 'sub-rules', not unlike how it was in Robocop.  After all, what if an competing company were to send someone to another company and ask an robot to give details about financial records?  Obviously, this is where sub-rules come in, and they would help determine whether or not certain humans can order certain activities on the part of an robot.

Now, from what I have read about your viewpoint on weak AIs in Gearhead, I must agree with it, though I think that in certain situations weak-AI robots can be useful.  For example, what about automated turrets?  They can detect whoever is in the hall that they are guarding if whether or not that person has an radio-ID badge that tells the turrets to stand down.  If there is none, then the robots take out whatever lifeforms are present, in whatever way possible.  Weak AI robots can be placed into certain positions and situations where they don't need to be complicated to carry out their work.  Both military and civilian.

Of course, that is the problem:  When something unpredictable happens, an weak AI is doomed to make major mistakes.  For example, what if an wall nearby is destroyed, allowing them line of sight with an medical bay with 'unauthorized' persons?  In that case, the turrets would probably fire at the hapless civilians in that section, which is pretty bad, especially during a battle.  What if the enemy has the right IFF codes?  In that case, an weak AI is pretty much worthless.

That is why developing 'higher' AIs is necessary for military and civilian applications.  For example, an AI to manage the flight and launching schedules of planes and vehicles, and to make sure everything is going as planned, whether it be weather, security, or military situations.  As such, an strong AI that can communicate with other kinds of AIs would have great civilian and military applications.  For example, take an 'Chessmaster' AI that is the 'general' of the military.  It is notified about an battle taking place, and notes that a civilian shuttlecraft is headed that way.  It tells the human generals about the situation and gives recommendations, and once allowed to carry out an operation, it can instantly communicate the plan to the Aerobiz AI that manages the civilian shuttlecraft route. (Basically telling the plane to change course, for one reason or another as fits the situation.)

Humans can't really work together quickly and efficiently, at least not when compared to robots.  Yet, humans are far better than robots because we can analyze an situation in an way a robot can't.  However, if one were to perfect an AI capable of matching human adaptability and perception, then it is an different ballgame.  While it is an dangerous idea, there are many people who can benefit from an higher AI.  But what of projects that seek to make an AI, but in physical form?  That makes things even more risky, especially if the robot were to go rogue.  No doubt, someone somewhere in the Gearhead universe doesn't want anyone to pull it off successfully.  The fact that the player could find such robots, or perhaps even create them would put them in an anti-robot group's sights.

peter:
Quoting: Joseph HewittI guess this means it's too cheap, quick, and easy to boost your skills to mega-epic levels. Maybe I should apply a level cap, or increase the XP requirements dramatically after skill level 15.

 I think just continuing the exponential increase of XP requirements would do the trick.  Currently, each rank after around 14 costs 37700XP, which is good for rank 14, but too cheap for rank 20.  This would make Hwang-Sa's promotion rewards (+1 rank of Martial Arts, if you're spiritual enough) potentially even more valuable.

 Capping skill levels at 30 (or even 20) might also be a good idea.

Quoting: Joseph HewittIn fact, you'll notice that there are no NPCs with skills much higher than 15. That's what I consider to be the highest "natural" skill value. The highest value I ever got personally was a Mecha Artillery score of 17, once.

 Omega-1004 has an Androbot body, so he has Weight Lifting 30.  That's kind of a special case, since that's just how GearHead represents metal being stronger than human muscle.

 One of my characters, the spiritual heavy-weapons specialist monk, has leadership 20.  After dominating some animals, I had more lancemates than I could lead without an XP penalty, so it was off to Wujung University for him.  It was late-game for that character, so I had enough cash on hand to do the training right away.

Quoting: Joseph HewittThere may be laws similar to those found in Mega-City One, where it is illegal to hire a robot for a human job and also illegal to hire a human for a robot job.


 Well, there are crime bosses with both Watchmen and Androbots (and Hunter-X synths) guarding their evil mansions right now...  BTW, are they supposed to have tamed the synths, or do they just not go into their houses via the front door?


Quoting: Sabin Stargem
That is why developing 'higher' AIs is necessary for military and civilian applications.

 Yeah, smarter, but still not self-aware, AI.  Self-aware, or sentient AI will have desires and opinions and morals which makes it a lot harder to build one to do only the task you intended it to do.  It would also be morally wrong to enslave a sentient AI by building it into a gun turret (unless it had good Internet access so it could talk to people, etc.  Even then, it wouldn't have a choice about it's job being to shoot people/things.).

 You have a good point about robots being able to communicate quickly, though.  At this point, you're talking about software that can run on general-purpose computers, and probably in fact does.

 Joseph, I don't understand the claim that there's no business case to build sentient robots.  If the liability issues were ever resolved, what society wouldn't want firefighters that didn't need to breathe air, accountants that didn't get bored and could tally vast amounts of data in their heads, and so on.  Speaking of data, Commander Data on Star Trek is a great example of a sentient robot who's extremely useful to have around.  What corporation wouldn't build some robots in the hope that at least a fraction of them would be willing to work for the corporation.  The nastier factions might deactivate and disassemble robots that weren't willing to go along with them.

 If robot AI is not well enough understood to be able to build a lawful robot, or otherwise ensure it will work for you, I can see why they aren't widely used.  I still think there would be elite robot troops/spies/assassins/accountants/doctors/academi cs  with really high stats.  Maybe there'd even be SF:1 or SF:2 robot soldiers...  Yeah, there probably would be some robot scientists.  Once a researcher builds a sentient robot

 I'm sure some mad scientist somewhere has built a little robot army, or tried to.

draconuszero:
On the sentient robot issue, chances are that if you have a robot that can think for itself and use a mecha, chances are that it would a) kill the master and run amok, b) become a walking Skynet, c) go rogue, or even d) kill itself realize its the lone sentient robot ever made unless it has robotics.

On a side note, wouldn't it be funny if you find a mercenary group led by a sentient robot/AI?  I recall that in the rogue squadron novels that the quartermaster for rogue or wraith squardron was a self-aware robot that was involved in a robot uprising.

macksting:
Why would those be the "chances are" scenario? It seems to me, if it was a sentient being, it wouldn't have a considerable need to do such things; I think its dismantling as a result of simple defiance would be a more likely result. (After all, if I were the sort of master who gave orders which would cause my sentient robot to kill me, I'd rather head such problems off at the pass and just build another, more obedient, robot.)
Essentially, I don't see a reason, especially in an anime setting, that a sentient robot need necessarily go on berserk killing sprees. In anime settings, sentient (and even non-sentient!) robots tend to have feelings and emotions. Even lacking that, I think a really significant error would have to happen for any decently made AI to start killing indiscriminately.

Now, depending on what you mean by "go rogue," you could be quite right. However, it's also possible that the robot, like the ones the PC creates, is just as happy to stick around. Why not? What if one of its feelings is fealty?
Skynet, of course, isn't totally out of bounds... but it might not necessitate the killing of humans. Not every AI is Prometheus.

Really, though, there's room in almost any setting for errors and problems.

Hmm. Might I point out that remote control and weak AI technologies should be sufficient for lifesaving, and might be a lot kinder to the robots you're sending into harm's way? Mind you, from a robot rights perspective, a sentient robot might volunteer for such work, just for the greater respect accorded to a robot who willingly risks its life saving your cat. If robots were to unionize or band together to fight oppression, one could expect the most advertised and important of these to be the sentient life-savers.

I must admit, I'd rather like to see a rash of SF:1 and SF:2 robots with superior stats, just to throw into a fight.

And finally, as to the mad scientist building a robot army, I believe the man who wrote the robotics guide on our mailing list fills that niche nicely. :) Really, though, I suppose you're right...

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page