Have you played Jagged Alliance 2?

[SharkD]

As the title suggests... Have you played Jagged Alliance 2?

I think it would be pretty sweet for GearHead 2 to have a similar strategic layer, where you have to fight to gain control of specific areas. (I've heard that the Avernum series also has a similar feature.)

What do you think?

[draconuszero]

Hmm, I don't think it'd be a good idea, since well its been done already and Joseph would have to really recode the whole game to make it as you suggest.  There is also the whole issue of pretty much randomizing new names for places and people as territories get conquered.

[Joseph Hewitt]

I haven't played Jagged Alliance 2, but that doesn't really sound like it would require recoding the whole game... It might require reworking the arena mode, though.

You could make an adventure module in which the PC had to conquer a number of cities while working against certain enemies. Of course, the names of the cities would be the same each time. The city scripts would have to be rewritten so that if the PC tries to enter a friendly city he just goes in, if he tries to enter a neutral city he can either try to conquer it or just go in, and if he tries to enter an enemy city this automatically leads to a fight/conquer attempt. The actions of the enemy NPCs could be controlled using factions or stories in the adventure gear itself.

[draconuszero]

The main thing about Jagged Alliance 1+2 is that while you can conquer enemy terriory, the enemy can conquer your territory as well, thus probablyt making it a coding nightmare.  That was what made it fun yet evil at the same time.  The other main thing about the game was that every squad member had their own personalities, people they like/love/hate, and peculiarities.

[macksting]

It seems to me that the enemy taking over your cities would simply be a randomly selected quest, at least one per city (and there just aren't that many cities) which would, if it doesn't go well, change the city's faction.
Best part is, if done GearHead style, the outcome of the battles will be slightly herocentric, the Chatterbox and random character generation would take a huge load off the sort of trouble you're talking about, and if there's really a need for them to love or hate eachother, I'm sure that's not too difficult to code, or at least make quests for, either.

Finally, in GearHead, there is often another way about things. For instance, if you can Stealth your way into the hostile city, you might be able to complete a guerilla war quest which drives the enemy out on the basis of the city being too expensive to hold! Toss in a few "surprise attack" salvage missions, a few "hit and run" no-salvage missions, a few "destroy the smuggler"-style trade disruption missions, and on the basis of faction XP or something, have this Stealth-based character completely dominate a city he might not be able to take all at once, and maybe get a few lancemates at the same time!
Likewise, sufficient Conversation skill might yield up the ability to talk revolution and get the people to overthrow the oppressors without you ever lifting a finger. Toss in one personal-scale violent assassination attempt against the PC, and you're all set!
Finally, the enemy's various plotlines might encompass entirely the same selection, albeit simplified because you aren't observing the conversations or details. Therefore, you might need to talk down unrest in your own city, order an assassination and have to roll an Intimidate check against the people (which, if it fails, results in the assassinated character's martyrdom!) or defend your own transports from guerilla warfare!

I'd be willing to contribute to this, if somebody would write up the basic scenario. With this much easy-to-produce detail, it would probably be best to limit the number of cities.

[SharkD]

One thing that I liked (that GearHead doesn't have) is that the sector map was like a chess board. You had a grid of adjacent sectors which you would attempt to gain control of, one by one. Also, you could see the enemy units move across the map.

I just can't picture how this would be done in GearHead, as units (other than the PC's party) don't actually take up space on the map. (Also, cities only occupy one tile on the map. (Having cities occupy several tiles on the world map would be a neat improvement, IMO.))

[macksting]

Interesting point.
GH2 will have active encounters apparently, wherein your ability to percieve enemies moving will have a lot to do with your success at moving unimpeded across the land, and where you need to actively seek out caravans to attack... so while the character's perception will limit what you're talking about, it does feed nicely into the PC-driven combination idea I threw together a post or two above this.

[draconuszero]

Will this lead to the inevitable "capture the manufacturing plant/mine/factory" plots that the jagged alliance games generally have?  Actually, it'd be interesting if you have a mission which will result in you getting a steady source of income like in JA?  Another interesting thing would be if you have a lancemate you just will not be able to understand due to language barriers or other issue, like Ivan in Jagged Alliance 1.  Ivan spoke Russian and when you talked to him his response screen was not in english.  He was ironically one of the better mercs in the game ironically even with the language issue.  In Jagged Alliance 2, he is taking English classes to help in his merc work.

[balanus]

I may be worng, but I believe that the idea of cities ocupying more than one hex can be easily changed. Am I right?

[macksting]

Interesting point.
Honestly, it probably couldn't hurt to have Downtown Snake Lake take up one space, and you enter it normally, plus spaces around it on the map for the waterfront and the corporate sector... Certainly the bus stop to Wujung in the middle of Last Hope proves the feasibility of implimenting it similarly.
I'd actually rather like that. Of course, it sounds like GH2 might just have a menu system for entering an area or something. (I assume there'll be space stations with relatively few ports, so as to restrict your entry initially only to their tourist traps?)

[draconuszero]

Assuming that you can hire a squad of lancemates in GH2, wouldn't it be an idea for you get be able to make a home base, say a battleship or carrier or even a land base?

[Anticheese]

I like the idea, But the cost would be fairly prohibitive...

Think about it - A section of good upmarket land costs about $180,000 excluding construction which for a good house would cost another $300,000..
With millitaristic intent in mind I'd imagine construction to be more expensive, And then you have the fact that not many navys are not willing to sell off their cruisers.

I reckon it would be far better if your faction can provide you with one after you reach certain conditions as opposed to being able to buy one.

For instance, the Solar Navy supposedly is a space navy right? Yet you can go up to Admiral (commander of a fleet) and still not have a ship to your name, To be fair that would not work in GH1 but in GH2 I would like to see rank confer other benifits than exclusive equipment or cyberware.

A base fits the bill quite perfectly.

But, How would it impact gameplay? Would a battleship just handle like an unwieldy Mecha or would it be a world unto itself, with 5 decks and oppertunity to excersise you or your companions repair skills on individual systems from time to time?

It also makes sense for a lance to be a prerequisite for battleship ownership, Someone needs to man the guns..

E# -Left engine
##T -Wing turret
#########
E###T####M -Main engine, turret and a main gun
##T###### -Another wing turret
###
E# -Right engine

Okay, so its more like a space shuttle with guns but you should be able to get the idea...

[Joseph Hewitt]

I've started a new thread about spaceships in GH2. Direct all further discussion of that to the Game Mechanics forum.

[macksting]

Bases would be, I think, a natural plot progression in many of these factions. A Navy admiral like my Madigan might gain command of a naval base or ship. A TDF character might gain a forward defense outpost or some kind of other deadzone settlement. Likewise, an AOL character might get a naval vessel or ground base. A Biocorp soldier might get command of his or her own factory research center thingy.
...perhaps a Deulist might get his or her own arena.
Frankly, I think it would be cool if it were a randomly generated, once-only plot element; you know, advancement according to openings as opposed to rank, rank still being a prerequisite. (After all, many of these characters are supposed to become Managers and Vice Presidents.) However, sometimes there just isn't room for advancement.

That said, I've little idea how one would program this in. Budgetted improvements shouldn't be hard; just have the place be pretty sparse to begin with. It might even come across a bit like Suikoden II, with its many merchants and a few saying, "Can I set up shop where you are?"
This could be good or bad.
Thoughts?

[SharkD]

There's much to be said about having one base, regardless of background. Having a different base for everyone adds a lot of complexity (randomness) without serving any narrative purpose, where I'd rather see other areas of the game fleshed out. This is a problem a lot of roguelikes have.

Bases would be, I think, a natural plot progression in many of these factions.

It's no greater nor less than a plot progression than if there were only one base for everyone. I would agree with you, if one's faction had any great effect upon the plot.