Author Topic: Slice of Life  (Read 3553 times)

Offline Michael

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Slice of Life
« on: December 14, 2010, 11:35:30 PM »
It's been quite a while since I've last played GearHead.  I was recently reflecting on why this was.

I think it's because I was enjoying GearHead 1 (never did get into 2) as a "Slice of Life" game.  I wasn't playing to "win" it, but to play a role basically.  But I gave up on it because I kept getting dispossessed.

If you see GearHead as a real game, a test of skill that can be lost, then GH1 actually is quite mild, in that combat losses do not force the game to end.  A late game character can in theory dip into savings to buy a replacement mecha, and the less severe handicaps associated with personal-scale "death" can be bought off or fought through.  But as a fantasy amusement, it's way too harsh.

My approach to the game also explains some of my problems.  I loved to play with the fun skills, like Survival and Robotics, and gave little attention to the combat skills besides Piloting and Gunnery.  (I did try Mecha Fighting in many of my builds in an attempt to obtain backup mecha, but this never worked very well.)  Because I was gunnery-centric, the tutorial-quest Corsair very valuable to me, as it comes with the LAS-10, the strongest ammoless Gunnery weapon.

It also meant that the efforts of the game to push me towards the "Typhon" quest (which I only know about from sourcediving and discussion here) were a bit annoying, since the generated missions can get hazardous.  Even the first XRAN mission can be quite unfair sometimes (the Vadel bountyhunter, and the Neko dude who thinks you still work for AOL). 
 
I can see why people obsess so on combat skills (Spot Weakness and the like).  XP invested in other skills will eventually be lost if you have to cure dispossession by rolling a new character.  Most of the remaining skills are only helpful in personal combat, which is much lower risk as you can buy a near-optimal armor set at the start of the game and will never lose it.  Mecha Engineering can help, but not in the long term if you lose customized mecha faster than you can find (and afford) extra parts.


Anyhow, it's something to think about with future GearHead design -- consider the player who takes pleasure in gradually growing his character in a low-stakes environment.

Offline plllizzz

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2010, 03:11:47 PM »
well, it's still a -roguelike-, I don't think I would 'enjoy' RLs so much without the constant risk of loosing anything to a stroke of bad luck, but I understand forcing someone to play like this isn't a good idea [and it encourages savescumming]

so, maybe difficulty levels? no permadeath, capped enemies, lower injury rate etc. on 'Explorer' and 'losing is fun' mode for the hardcore?

Offline Michael

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 01:05:10 PM »
well, it's still a -roguelike-, I don't think I would 'enjoy' RLs so much without the constant risk of loosing anything to a stroke of bad luck, but I understand forcing someone to play like this isn't a good idea [and it encourages savescumming]

But is it?  My point is that the reason GH1 seems so mean despite being forgiving compared to other roguelikes, is that it doesn't actually feel like one.  I'd say it actually is more of an Ultima-like.

Offline cowofdoom78963

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 07:51:09 PM »
It's not that the game is "so mean despite being forgiving compared to other roguelikes." it's that it's so mean and it uses lack of perminant death as an excuse for being so damn mean. Gearhead is one of (if not the most) unforgiving and frustrating games I have ever played in my entire life.

In most rougelikes dieing sucks pretty hard. You lose everything and have to start all over! But in gearhead, instead of killing you it pulls you out of your destroyed mech and tells you...

NO YOUR NOT GOING TO DIE
YOUR MECH IS GONE
ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS ARE DEAD
YOU ARE A LOSER
YOU ARE MISERABLE AND DEPRESSED
YOU ARE PERMINANTLY CRIPPLED
YOU HAVE NO MORE MONEY
NOBODY LOVES YOU
AND YOUR GOING TO LIVE WITH IT

I can honestly say that in gearhead losing is not fun.

Offline Frumple

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 11:16:45 PM »
Which definitely marks it as a 'different tastes' thing going down. I enjoy GH's 'death' mechanic, especially GH1's, because there weren't any permanent, or even particularly troubling, setbacks. You couldn't die, injury was a cyberware piece away from fixing, and there was always free mecha to be had if you didn't have the cash to just buy a new one (or some mecha sitting in th'garage.). Morale was fixable with a short trip north and could be maintained via food. You could build super-allies at will. Cash was a quick jaunt through the sewer with a plasma cannon, and a decent conversation skill means everyone loves you, for ever and ever and ever.

Getting blown up was a kick in the pants, but it wasn't a loss, just a speedbump in the way of bigger and better things, that occasionally ended up with you needing a neat piece of machinery added into your wimpy fleshbag.

GH2's a little more vicious, with the actual permadeath, less freebies, slower low-rep cash gain, and harder to make allies (though it's easier to find ones.), but GH1... losing isn't really a big deal. Every problem you can have is solved by a little SF:0 scutwork, made cake by a decent weapon. The difficulty level in either of the gearheads... just doesn't compare to most other RLs. It's a lot harder to lose dozens of hours of work in a single turn, and a lot less likely for that to actually happen, once you're familiar with the game.

I can see how it's a pretty hard kick to the pants until you figure out where all the little pick-me-up tricks are, though. Not much t'do for GH1 there, though.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 11:19:46 PM by Frumple »
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Offline Michael

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 06:51:28 PM »
In most rougelikes dieing sucks pretty hard. You lose everything and have to start all over! But in gearhead, instead of killing you it pulls you out of your destroyed mech and tells you...

I've observed this myself many times before.  Nethack just boots you out of the game, but Gearhead breaks your character, hands it back to you, and dares you to continue.

and there was always free mecha to be had if you didn't have the cash to just buy a new one (or some mecha sitting in th'garage.).

I'm aware of the potential for free Mecha -- in fact I have compiled for personal reference a list of every MechaPrize in GH 1.100.  The problem is that the only frequently appearing mecha-gift quest exclusively gives BuruBurus, which are not as good as the initial mecha.

The key problem with the BB is that the various models have several weapons which individually aren't very good, and are scattered across all three classes.  Meaning you must invest in Initiative and all three attack skills to use a BB effectively.  Half the weapons are bolted on too.

In contrast, the Corsair, which I love, comes with the perfect MG weapon, and has everything that the player might wish to get rid of on hardpoints.  (Okay, unless you object to the roller skates.  But I like them.)

I can see how it's a pretty hard kick to the pants until you figure out where all the little pick-me-up tricks are, though. Not much t'do for GH1 there, though.

The problem is that the primary "little pick me up" trick experienced players seem to rely on, is to throw every discretionary XP into mecha combat skills, writing off the many quests that require boutique skills, such as Impervium (Science) or the Primal Genome (Code Breaking).  That and save scumming....

Offline Frumple

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 05:28:25 AM »
[WARNING: Posts from this individual tend to get longer and less coherant in direct correlation to how long it's been since said person last slept and if said person slept during the day, or the night. It's been a long night.]

Sorta'. From what I understand, if you're really trying to streamline things, you take combat-centric skills for the first bit of the game, until you can reliably get a good chunk of cash from sewer missions (or anywhere, I suppose, but sewers have pretty much the best time/reward ratio.). Then you go hunt down all the trainers and chat them up. Shortly thereafter, your skills (as in, all of them) are at least in the teens. 'Boutique' quests become more or less trivial.

The thing with GH1 -- it's quite different in GH2 -- is that you can every-skill it without much trouble, at all. XP is for stats and talents, not skills -- skills are where you funnel the millions in cash you're raking in killing alligators and assassins in droves. You only put the absolute minimum amount of XP you can manage into any skill, with anything else you can scrounge going into the exponential cost of stat improvement.

The real MVP 'pick me up' skills (though perhaps not the tricks, just what's needed to pull 'em off.) are dodge and <preferred SF:0 weapon skill> (probably heavy weapons/small arms or armed combat -- plasma cannon, for the LINE and infinite ammo, or deathwings, for the infinite ammo and every-turn attack capability that comes from carrying six or seven of them.), not the mecha skills -- excepting Mecha Engineering, which is probably the MVP Knowledge skill. At least one KN skill is, of course, requisite for anything along these lines. Might as well take the one that's most consistently useful.

And that's not the only way to do it, either. Performance can let you bypass quite a bit of the combat aspect that would normally be needed to jumpstart cash-based skill training, if you push it hard enough. It's definitely slower and less entertaining for the player, but it's possible to get that first few hundred thousand just singing to people, go chat up th'trainers, and then it's off to th'races.

The real issue, from what I understand, with th'non-core skills (i.e. not combat or facilitating combat) is what it's been for a while now: Lack of content. This isn't to say GH1 lacks content, of course it doesn't, but extensive usage of non-core skills -- especially for equitable and repeatable reward, compared to the core skills -- has always been comparatively sparse.

Some of this just stems from what GH is, first and foremost -- a Giant Robot themed game. Mecha media pretty much invariably has combat -- or at least th'giant robots, for which combat is bloody close to the only reason for their creation -- as its centerpoint and primary attraction. That's what makes it a mecha-related piece of work instead of space opera or more generic science fiction. Sci-fi can have giant robots, but a Giant Robot themed peice of work is going to focus on, well, giant robots -- and the themes that have traditionally accompanied them. I'll link to th'post where JH mentioned as primary influences for GH a bit after I post this, just in case you've not seen it before.

All that being said! This doesn't mean that Gearhead in general should go down that sort of path, nor does it mean it is. The only one who knows precisely (or at least in general) which sort of direction GH is going is JH. Mr. H has done a fair amount, already, to render luxury skills more viable in GH2 than they were in GH1, which I'd guess at least partially hints that GH2 may, eventually, end up more friendly toward 'slice of life' playing than GH1 was... I guess, anyway. Signs point to probably not...

But hey. Source is open, mods are welcome, and the only limit is th'imagination and patience of people willing to take advantage of that.

Anyway. Take everything about with grain of salt, and advisement that it's 6 AM here and I woke up around 11 AM yesterday. I'm really too tired to think straight, so I rambled... aimlessly. Looking at all that, I can't really figure out if I had a point, or was just stream-of-consciousnessing it. Probably the latter.

Last point, re: Buru Buru. Shaka cannons do everything you need to get off the ground, and nova pistols stuck in every spare hole in your machine wrecks stuff in the early-mid game. The real problem with Burus is the base MV/TR penalty... but you only need one to headshot a few mecha for th'loots. Shouldn't be a problem if you're actually wangatta -- the quality of opponent should be such that a simple 5 in piloting and <whatever> will let cheerfully collect downed machinery to sell for however much you need for your preferred machine. If you're too weak to handle what your rep's thrown at you in a Buru Buru (though, if your reps that high, you've prooobably got some (several dozen) spare mecha sitting around, somewhere.), just retreat from a few missions, etc, etc. It's pretty possible to skimp by after a disaster even with pretty minimal combat skills. I remember getting a 10 reflex, 3 or so piloting dude who'd gotten an eye shot out (and mech destroyed, o'course) back off the ground. It was fun :D

I'm seeing more as my mind wanders how a tightly-themed character that wasn't trying to game the system could have problems, though. Not having M.Engy (or any knowledge skill at all), not having SF:0 or SF:2 fighting skills... that would cause trouble. Definitely a more frustrating game if you're trying to do that... but as sorta' mentioned, you're going against the game's theme if your character's not some sort of death machine. All the main-character giant robot pilots are, one way or another. There's not exactly anything wrong with that, but the expected consequence is, well, expected. Th'fixin' would be in creating content, which unfortunately for GH1 -- which is finished, more or less -- is likely going to come solely from the players. Such coding shenanigans are beyond a poor fellow like m'self.

EDITS: GH's visual influences: http://www.gearheadrpg.com/forum/index.php/topic,790.0.html
34 pages into JH's post list, I find it! The other 'here there be dragonsinfluences post: http://www.gearheadrpg.com/forum/index.php/topic,1047.msg11489.html#msg11489
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 05:53:31 AM by Frumple »
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Offline cowofdoom78963

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 11:33:42 PM »
I had a whole big post but I accidently closed the window so crap! ;D

The gist of my post was that I have been playing too much gearhead 2 and that admit that gearhead 1 is a lot less frustrating. And to top it off least time I played gearhead it was a chalange run.

As for the little pick-me-ups, I have done them all. Though a few of them aren't so easy. Making useful robots requires a VERY good robotics skill. Grinding out wanga status is a pain(military events make it a bit easier, but it's still a grindfest). Cyberware malfunctions have driven me to quit. Mystic characters don't handle them well at all to boot.

Though in gearhead 1 I think you could use robots and a high leadership and maybe live your normal skills fantasy though. After beating gearhead for the first time I planned on doing this in GH2, but that's a much different game and friend slots make it impossible to rely on allys. So I haven't tried it myself, but it seems sound...

Also in gearhead 1(but not 2!) you can increase slots by practicing knowledge skills and then using knowledge boosts to get more slots, that might help if you're having trouble with the "required" skills taking up too much space.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 11:47:02 PM by cowofdoom78963 »

Offline Michael

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 08:12:19 PM »
The thing with GH1 -- it's quite different in GH2 -- is that you can every-skill it without much trouble, at all. XP is for stats and talents, not skills -- skills are where you funnel the millions in cash you're raking in killing alligators and assassins in droves. You only put the absolute minimum amount of XP you can manage into any skill, with anything else you can scrounge going into the exponential cost of stat improvement.

My characters do not shy away from personal scale missions, but I'm not seeing the "millions".

I think the issue is that the difficultly of both personal scale and mecha scale missions is decided by the same "renown" score.  Which means I only get offered missions of difficulty that the game believes corresponds to my mecha (lack of) success.

This, by the way, is why the sewer dive is so loved.  You have the option of going deeper than the minimum requested, thus obtaining a payout proportional to your true level of incompetence.  As a result, all the personal missions I'm offered are even easier than, say, retrieving the data cartridge in the initial Snake Lake quest.

(It's funny how Turing talks up a storm about how hopeless the PLOT_BioHunt mission is.  One or two zaps from my Raichu and they're down for the count.)

Ah, Wujung University.  I've noticed most players seem to love it, even though the cost seems extortionate to me.  $250 for one measly XP.  At that rate, I'd wish to sell XP for cash...

Also in gearhead 1(but not 2!) you can increase slots by practicing knowledge skills and then using knowledge boosts to get more slots, that might help if you're having trouble with the "required" skills taking up too much space.

I know about that.  And it's not actually to skill limit that concerns me, as is the XP cost in general.

Offline cowofdoom78963

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 10:02:41 PM »
Ohhhhh... Im starting to get what you're saying

Quote
I think the issue is that the difficultly of both personal scale and mecha scale missions is decided by the same "renown" score.  Which means I only get offered missions of difficulty that the game believes corresponds to my mecha (lack of) success.

Oh yeah. This one makes no sense. My character can punch out a vadel but he's too scared to go kill some gremlins at the dump? Sure, that makes sense.

Quote
This, by the way, is why the sewer dive is so loved.  You have the option of going deeper than the minimum requested, thus obtaining a payout proportional to your true level of incompetence.  As a result, all the personal missions I'm offered are even easier than, say, retrieving the data cartridge in the initial Snake Lake quest.

You can also do the arena combat down in the southern fortress(I forget what it's called) for good money for pc scale combat characters. You cant quit once you start it though.

The ammount you gain there is also based on how many times you won rather then your renown level.

Personally I think that it should be easier to gain renown. Getting strongarm and rat killing missions are entirely pointless for everyone involved. No money or experience, just pointless grinding for renown.

As for wujung university, it's a lot more reasonable than it seems. Expecially for low level skills. Why spend 100 hard earned exp to practice a skill when you could just spend $25000. I also think intelegence and teacher relations help.

Offline Frumple

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 10:58:23 PM »
KN and teacher relation does improve the amount you gain per unit of cash, yes. Ultimately it's something like $100 per XP, iirc. When sewer missions are bringing in upwards 2 million per run, that's 20,000 XP equivalent a trip. That's a lot, to say the least -- and it's self-perpetuating, to boot. The more cash you get, the higher your skills go, the more cash you can get.

Re: The renown thing: It's a known issue. Iirc, JH has/is planning to implement high-risk missions that let you jump renown up a larger amount than normal. Obviously doesn't matter for GH1, but yeah.
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Offline cowofdoom78963

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 11:06:45 PM »
Quote
Re: The renown thing: It's a known issue. Iirc, JH has/is planning to implement high-risk missions that let you jump renown up a larger amount than normal. Obviously doesn't matter for GH1, but yeah.

In GH1 that you can jump renown back to 0 if you do an especially hard mission. But there's only the one type and it only happens if your renown is especially low.

Offline Rowanthepreacher

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 11:11:30 PM »
I finally ground my way up to having actual renown! It feels nice to do missions worth more than 3 grand. Fortunately, it's much easier and faster to grind out of wangtta if you're wanted by the L5Law.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 03:58:06 AM »
Re: The renown thing: It's a known issue. Iirc, JH has/is planning to implement high-risk missions that let you jump renown up a larger amount than normal. Obviously doesn't matter for GH1, but yeah.

What's really needed is separate counters for renown in the two spheres.  Presently, demonstrating skill in one sphere will get you raped in the other -- unless you keep your abilities balanced in the way the game anticipates.

Also, shortly after my last post, I encountered this funny video that covers the issue of game misbalance for common playing styles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D31rhjKHytg

Offline cowofdoom78963

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Re: Slice of Life
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 05:02:26 PM »
Re: The renown thing: It's a known issue. Iirc, JH has/is planning to implement high-risk missions that let you jump renown up a larger amount than normal. Obviously doesn't matter for GH1, but yeah.

What's really needed is separate counters for renown in the two spheres.  Presently, demonstrating skill in one sphere will get you raped in the other -- unless you keep your abilities balanced in the way the game anticipates.

Also, shortly after my last post, I encountered this funny video that covers the issue of game misbalance for common playing styles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D31rhjKHytg

I accidently posted before I wrote anything. Give me a second...

Ok, yeah that's a big problem in gearhead. I always have to do calculations regarding how many missions I have to do so that I can gain exp while not gaining  too much renown and thus ruining my chances in the next plot mission. Ususally I just end up crawling into the dark hovel and grinding on street punks to avoid renown(and it has the upsides of naturally training combat skills while giving me exp to buy mech skills, but it's horribly grindy).

Although like frumple said there are going to be different risk missions later on that have different effects. So maybe there might be some missions with no renown gain.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 05:24:14 PM by cowofdoom78963 »