GH2: Reacting to the PC's Actions

[Joseph Hewitt]

As further part of GH2's slimming campaign, I plan to remove the personality traits Sociable/Shy, Passionate/Easygoing, Cheerful/Melancholy and Pragmatic/Spiritual. They were not a good mechanic for measuring the PC's actions and have not been fun to play. Of course, we do need some mechanic for measuring what the PC has done so that NPCs can react to it.

Before I give my new ideas, I'll review the variables which currently do affect NPC reactions:

Reaction Score: That green bar on the interact display; it indicates how much the NPC likes or hates the PC. Since most of the other values on this list factor into this score it can be used as a good proxy for everything else.

Renown, Lawfulness, Heroism: These three traits affect reaction score, and in certain cases may be checked independently.

Motive, Attitude, and Relationship: These values describe the NPC's relationship with the PC, meaning that most NPCs won't have them at all.

Faction Affiliation and Level: Faction affiliation comes into play most often when seeking a job. Faction level doesn't come into play often, but it probably should- faction members of lesser rank should show greater deference to a high-ranking PC.

So that's that. Now, a system for reacting to the PC's actions must satisfy a number of conditions:

1) It should be concise enough that it can be incorporated into most personas. The trouble with a big system with loads of variables is that it means you have to check a whole lot of special cases every time the PC interacts with anyone.

2) The player should know how they earned their reputation. That's one of the problems with the personality trait system- nobody knew what they were doing to get the reputations they had.

3) The feedback should happen rapidly.

Here's my new idea: A series of "virtues" like in Ultima IV, where the player will frequently be forced to choose one over another. I put "virtues" in quotation marks because some of these aren't exactly what you'd call virtuous... they are, though, things that most cavaliers aspire to.

Fellowship: The principal virtue of Shonen manga. Being a good friend, aiding your companions, and forgiving your enemies (so they can join your team).

Protection: Defending the innocent, or even the not so innocent. Protecting your homeland.

Justice: Punishing the guilty. Destroying corruption and evil.

Glory: Not taking crap from anyone, general badassery. Seeking personal gain.

There's an interesting article on the morality of action manga here: http://io9.com/5490323/to-protect-and-kill-morality-in-action-manga

Hopefully it's clear that these four "virtues" will not always be in agreement. Your have your enemy cornered, and they wish to surrender. Dost thou accept the offer to protect lives on both sides or dost thou justly trounce the knave? When dealing with NPCs only your top virtue will be counted (usually). If that's Glory, then your character will be treated as a glory-hound with all the advantages and disadvantages that entails... it may be easier to get missions, but harder to get help. There should be fairly well-defined reactions for all four types.

In the initial lancemate quest, returning the stolen artifact to the cavalier could be an act of Fellowship while keeping it for yourself would be an act of Glory. The thief's motivation could be expanded on, so they will be killed if they don't provide the artifact- in this case, helping the thief make the delivery could be an act of Protection.

What do you think about this? Are there any virtues missing, or would you change them around a bit?

One additional thing that can be done with these virtues: They can be incorporated into the core story's choice system. At the moment, the dramatic choice suffers from being somewhat un-choice-like... What about if we have four general paths through the game, one for each of the virtues, plus a fifth "path" for people who either don't have a specific goal or who wander all over the place? This would give some structure and meaning to the choice mechanic (more than it has now, anyhow), would make your choices have an effect on the game world beyond the core story, and might provide a nice unifying motif for everything.

[RadonPlasma]

I've only just now skimmed this, but I like what I see.  I never really dug the score-based rep thing, either.  Allowing the PC to honor a central tenet of their character through their overall choices would be a refreshing change.

[magic.coding.fairy.peridot]

Maybe one way to test the system is to think about whether it leads NPCs to react appropriately to some archetypes the player might aim for?

• The Dread Pirate Roberts: should inspire terrified obedience from civilians, arrest attempts from police, respect and fear from other pirates. Glory-hound, strong in support of his crew, but outlawed.
• The Mad Scientist: should inspire skepticism, fear, torch-bearing mobs. Maybe a glory-hound, maybe not; probably an outlaw.
• Mother Theresa: should inspire respect and admiration. Possibly a glory-hound (look at how self-sacrificing I am!) but if played straight, big on Protection.
• Judge Dredd: fear, possibly respect, depending partly on how lawful the NPC is. Big on justice, not so much the others.
• Chairman Mao: fear and/or respect depending on how people feel about the ideals of the revolution (or depending on their place in the new revolutionary order). Justice, I suppose?
• Robin Hood: respect from the poor, fear from the rich, arrest attempts from the police. Justice/Protection, though in this case justice and the law are in conflct.
• Sherriff of Nottingham: respect from the rich (or at least its semblance), fear from the poor. Justice, arguably, and Glory.
• Sonny Bono: should probably be respected by everyone who he isn't crusading against. Justice/Protection, some Glory.

One thing that strikes me is that it might be valuable to have a formal Outlaw status (or maybe one per polity? Just because you broke Rishiri law doesn't mean AOL wants to arrest you). This mechanic worked in Morrowind; if you were seen to break the law, the police would be after you. If they caught you you had to pay a fine or go to jail (which eroded your stats badly); if you got away there were thieves' guild members who could clean your record for a price (necessarily less than the price on your head). In GH's context, the separate polities might have different rules, but in most all it would take to become an outlaw is breaking a law once. (This is as distinct from how much a faction likes you.) If the price on your head gets high enough they might start sending bounty hunters/police officers after you wherever you are; you might also have to watch out if other polities have extradition treaties. Mechanic-wise, this gives pirate actions a distinct price in money and inconvenience, and it's more transparent than faction liking. It can be clarified by having wanted posters appear on job boards and in the news. (Not just pirate actions either; if the Rocket Stars send you on a covert sabotage mission to Rishiri and you get spotted, you could be outlawed there.)

[Joseph Hewitt]

These virtues would be replacing the deleted personality traits- Sociable/Shy, Passionate/Easygoing, Cheerful/Melancholy and Pragmatic/Spiritual. Only the highest ranking virtue would count- a PC with 30 points in Justice and 10 points in Fellowship would be treated as a Justice-type PC. The other traits, which are not being deleted, modify the meaning of this chief virtue. Outlaw status will still be covered by the Criminal trait.

The idea here isn't to create a universal alignment system. The idea is to create an alignment system specific to this setting and the role of the PC therein.

Here's a more detailed overview of the system. I've split "Protection" into "Duty" and "Compassion"- more about that in a sec.

Acts describes how you can gain in this virtue. An act only nets you points if taking an alternate action would benefit a different virtue. For instance, all cavaliers will fight their enemies, but you only get points in Justice if you choose to start/continue a fight in defiance of Fellowship, Duty, Compassion or Glory.

Carrot: How to motivate a character of this type. Actual rewards may not vary much, but the NPC making the offer will emphasize these details.

Stick: How to push the character's buttons.

Fellowship
   Leader
   We are all cavaliers, no matter which side we're on.
   Acts: Aid others, fair play
   Carrot: I need your help
   Stick: Friends in trouble

Justice
   Crusader
   Evil should be punished, and the innocent protected.
   Acts: Fight enemies, aid the innocent
   Carrot: The chance to fight your enemies
   Stick: Enemy gets away with it

Duty
   Soldier
   You must honor your contracts and aid in mutual defense.
   Acts: Follow orders exactly, keep your end of a deal
   Carrot: Promotion, city defense
   Stick: You have failed

Compassion
   Peacekeeper
   It's better to solve conflicts without violence.
   Acts: Resolve conflict peacefully
   Carrot: People will die!
   Stick: People die.

Glory
   Badass, Magnificent Bastard
   Make sure that they remember your name.
   Acts: Benefit self at expense of others
   Carrot: Money and other material rewards
   Stick: Lose stuff, get ripped off.

Virtues and the core story: The choice system should be reworked so that for any situation, the PC has several choices, each of which corresponds to one of the virtues. For instance, if your mentor was killed, your choices may include to track down the killer (Justice), to discover and complete your mentor's project (Duty), or to take care of your mentor's other students (Fellowship). You should always be able to choose the same virtue you chose last time, though not all virtues may be available from all story states.

Virtues and factions: Each faction will have a single core virtue which describe its nature. If your PC's core virtue aligns with the faction's core virtue, it may be easier to get missions from them and faction rewards may be increased. Here's the layout I have planned:

• L5 Alliance: Duty
• Comet Metalworks: Duty
• Silver Knights: Compassion
• Aegis Overlord: Duty
• Pro Duelist Association: Fellowship
• Privateer Guild: Glory
• Hoeller Industries: Duty
• Blades of Crihna: Justice
• L5Law: Compassion
• Free Commerce States: Duty
• Rishiri Dominion: Duty
• Bohemian Collective: Duty
• MUGL: Fellowship
• Rocket Stars: Fellowship under Vannis, Glory under Jondi
• Red Mask Raiders: Glory
• Aegis Space Force: Duty

Note that the virtue is what the faction expects of its operatives, not necessarily what it practices as a whole. Also note that there's no correspondence between the virtues as described above and the lawful/criminal or heroic/villainous traits: The Blades of Crihna have Justice as their core virtue. Why? They want to punish Rishiri and protect the asteroids. Other people might not think that their version of Justice is a good one, but that's the way they see things.

Duty is pretty much the default virtue for factions, especially governments and corporations.

[plllizzz]

well, limiting factions to a single virtue describing them would be kinda wasting potential

for example Pirates should be represented by a combination of Glory/Fellowship while the law forces by Justice/Duty

also, for fractions like Aegis, a virtue of 'Pragmaticism' - getting the best possible outcome disregarding the sacrifices - could be introduced

[Joseph Hewitt]

well, limiting factions to a single virtue describing them would be kinda wasting potential

Why do you think so? How would the mechanics work for multiple virtues associated with a single faction?

also, for fractions like Aegis, a virtue of 'Pragmaticism' - getting the best possible outcome disregarding the sacrifices - could be introduced

How would this virtue differ from Duty?

[RadonPlasma]

well, limiting factions to a single virtue describing them would be kinda wasting potential

Why do you think so? How would the mechanics work for multiple virtues associated with a single faction?

also, for fractions like Aegis, a virtue of 'Pragmaticism' - getting the best possible outcome disregarding the sacrifices - could be introduced

How would this virtue differ from Duty?

On the first thing, you kind of implied this yourself.  In the case of the Rocket Stars, you might be able to choose which virtue to emphasize based on which leader you got behind.  This implies, if not a sub-faction system, at least a (player-made) choice of emphasis.

On the second thing, I think plllizzz is going for a more self-serving angle than Duty, which would fall under another virtue you already mentioned - Glory.

[magic.coding.fairy.peridot]

These virtues would be replacing the deleted personality traits- Sociable/Shy, Passionate/Easygoing, Cheerful/Melancholy and Pragmatic/Spiritual. Only the highest ranking virtue would count- a PC with 30 points in Justice and 10 points in Fellowship would be treated as a Justice-type PC. The other traits, which are not being deleted, modify the meaning of this chief virtue. Outlaw status will still be covered by the Criminal trait.

I think what I was getting at is not so much the name of the trait but its nature: Criminality is currently a number that gets added to or subtracted from based on your actions. But no number of lost wallets returned should get you off the hook for murder; if you break the law, you pay, no matter what your tendencies are. On the other hand, GH has many different polities, with different laws and jurisdictions. So I suppose I'm suggesting Criminality be replaced by one boolean per faction, recording whether you've been outlawed by that faction. (Or maybe a number, the price on your head from each faction.) This determines whether police arrive to defend or arrest you, it may determine whether shopkeepers deal with you (or charge a premium), and it can provide plot points - "clear your name" can be a plot requirement. An emergent plot requirement, in fact - a plot could require you to act against L5Law in an illegal way (steal a mech, assassinate a corrupt official, sing in public), but then later obtain something from an L5Law official. You have to either find a way to do the first thing without being outlawed for it (get pirates to steal it and ambush them on the way home, subvert his household robots to they go untraceably amok, buy a permit first) or find a way to rehabilitate your good name (make a deal with L5Law to let you sell out your buyer and retrieve the mech, prove the official was selling cyberware he knew to be lethally defective, pay a fine). If there's a mechanism in place for outlawry and rehabilitation, the plot generator need not even know about these wrinkles - if you happen to need to visit a spinner where you've been outlawed, it's your problem. You're stuck buying from the black market, dodging police patrols, and checking rumours to find people who won't turn you in.

[plllizzz]

Duty
   Soldier
   You must honor your contracts and aid in mutual defense.
   Acts: Follow orders exactly, keep your end of a deal
   Carrot: Promotion, city defense
   Stick: You have failed

Glory
   Badass, Magnificent Bastard
   Make sure that they remember your name.
   Acts: Benefit self at expense of others
   Carrot: Money and other material rewards
   Stick: Lose stuff, get ripped off.

were mentioned to cover my idea of Pragmaticism, welp, I'll try to show it in a similar 'chart', to make it a bit more clear

Pragmaticism
Anti-Hero, Complete Monster
Cold logic, pursuing 'greater goals'
Acts: Always choosing the most logical/pragmatic option
Carrot: Getting closer to the 'greater goal', every puzzle falling into place
Stick: Things don't go according to the plan

It's possible that the other virtues (or their possible combinations) can cover this partailly or completely, well, that's only a minor suggestion of mine

[Joseph Hewitt]

On the first thing, you kind of implied this yourself.  In the case of the Rocket Stars, you might be able to choose which virtue to emphasize based on which leader you got behind.  This implies, if not a sub-faction system, at least a (player-made) choice of emphasis.

I don't think I'd want to do that for every faction, though- better to give the factions strong natures and let the PC choose an appropriate one to join rather than water down their natures and make every faction the same as every other one.

I think what I was getting at is not so much the name of the trait but its nature: Criminality is currently a number that gets added to or subtracted from based on your actions. ... So I suppose I'm suggesting Criminality be replaced by one boolean per faction, recording whether you've been outlawed by that faction.

Already exists: Enemy status. Currently you cannot become an enemy of L5Law through criminal acts alone, but that can be changed.

I think I should change things so that most shopkeepers won't deal with someone who is an enemy of the city/local police. That would certainly make this status more visible.

were mentioned to cover my idea of Pragmaticism, welp, I'll try to show it in a similar 'chart', to make it a bit more clear

Pragmaticism
Anti-Hero, Complete Monster
Cold logic, pursuing 'greater goals'
Acts: Always choosing the most logical/pragmatic option
Carrot: Getting closer to the 'greater goal', every puzzle falling into place
Stick: Things don't go according to the plan

It's possible that the other virtues (or their possible combinations) can cover this partailly or completely, well, that's only a minor suggestion of mine

Too vague, and I'm not sure how the description matches up with the archetype. Doesn't the "most logical/pragmatic" option depend on what your goal is, and therefore which of the other virtues you are motivated by?

Here's an example from Gundam 08th, phrased as an Ultima-style dilemma. You've been ordered by high command to destroy an enemy spaceship. You learn, though, that the vessel is full of refugees and is fleeing the battlefield. Do you: carry out your orders and destroy it (Duty), or refuse the orders and allow it to escape (Compassion)? Option #1 would likely result in some villainous reputation but greater rewards from your faction. Option #2 would probably result in a reprimand/loss of mission reward, but a bonus to heroism and maybe a new friend on the other side.

Note that there is nothing in the five virtues about good or evil- all of them can be used/abused for either end. Also note that most dilemmas will not be set up with one heroic choice and one villainous choice- in general, both choices can be morally ambiguous.

[plllizzz]

Too vague

I know, it really sounds like this even when I read it now

It's hard to describe an archetype like this - caring nor for duty, nor personal gain, having just one singular goal [revenge, wiping of the humanity or ascending it to a further level] and going by any means possible to attain it, even if it means sacrificing other people or greater rewards

in the mentioned Gundam 08 example, there isn't a place for a choice like this, but after a slight modification, I'll try adding it:

on the ship, with the refugees, there is a person who may know the location of some guy you really want to kill

Knowing this, you have choice to leave them by [compassion], destroying the ship [duty] or recovering that person [who may be the target of your higher ups] and then leaving everyone else for death or killing them yourselves

the point is, you don't follow the orders to the letter [duty], don't really save anyone [compassion], you sacrifice innocents [justice] and you don't really get any additional gain [glory] - you just push your agenda disregarding everything else, even risking the well-being of your company etc. After rethinking, more suiting a freelancer or assasin than Aegis, and pragmaticism isn't the best name for it...

[Joseph Hewitt]

It's hard to describe an archetype like this - caring nor for duty, nor personal gain, having just one singular goal [revenge, wiping of the humanity or ascending it to a further level] and going by any means possible to attain it, even if it means sacrificing other people or greater rewards

Kind of like the Char Aznable type, then: (spoilers) he joined Zeon and became their greatest pilot just so he could kill off the ruling family one by one.

It's an attractive idea. I do see a pitfall here, though- the computer has no way of knowing what your singular goal is, and so has no good way of reacting to it or even setting up appropriate choices. I think more focus is needed.

[RadonPlasma]

It's hard to describe an archetype like this

As far as I can tell, these wouldn't fit the mentioned archetypal traits at all - they're obsessions.  This being morning here, I'm not thinking clearly enough to suggest a workable subsystem for such 'aberrant foci'.  One thing is certain, I think; these things would likely need to be selected directly by the player.  Unless they arose on a conditional basis through the realization of particular plots, however, it seems likely that they would be most easily incorporated the same way your character's 'lifelong goals' are now - at chargen.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Last week I read a guest post at The Thoughtful Animal @Scienceblogs about Moral Foundations Theory, which is the idea that there are five innate traits which underly "intuitive morality". Four of the five virtues I picked out for GearHead line up nicely with four out of the five traits in MFT. This is presumably either a big coincidence, or I had heard about MFT before and didn't remember. Anyhow, it's neat.

http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/mft/index.php?t=home

Harm/Care = Compassion
Fairness/reciprocity = Justice
Ingroup/loyalty = Fellowship
Authority/respect = Duty

Unfortunately, it'd take a real stretch to make Purity/sanctity line up with Glory.

[SharkD]

While internally it might be sufficient to just use a single reaction score, it would be good IMO to let players *see* the factors that contribute to it. Using a bar graph for instance. Players should not be kept in the dark.