Author Topic: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2  (Read 2364 times)

Offline Vigilant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« on: September 05, 2010, 11:05:00 AM »
Hi, i've been kind of floating around for a while without saying anything, but I figured I should give my feedback:

I love what i've seen of combat so far, the skill system being compressed a bit, etc, but despite how much i loved GH1 and played it for days on end, I simply cannot get into GH2, at all :(

Dull World Travel : both the in-game lore in both games and comics in Ataraxia Theater seem to point to stuff happening space, but when you get out there in game : There's a big wide nothingness. As annoying as it could sometimes be for "You're attacked by raiders," the random events moving around the world in GH1 gave the game more life and a little more action than just moving around inbetween cities doing quests. The same goes for moving around in town. As you walk around the streets inbetween buildings... it's just... empty.

Speaking of which, moving in and out of towns is more complicated now. Since if you so much as enter a spinner, you have to navigate to the spaceport and then to the airlock or ticket guy if you want to leave. In the first game a shortcut to leave the town would have been inappropriate since oftentimes there might be someone chasing you through the town, but since the city streets are vacant, there may as well be a shortcut.

Also, the one thing i really dislike is the universe has become so much less free-form, or at least has in appearance. GH1 you could be so many things besides a mecha pilot. The ticket system wasn't so much to account for it being hard to travel for the world map as much as it was to account for you possibly not even owning a mecha to travel with. And towns would have bounty hunting jobs, paramedic jobs, chances for you to earn a living with music. I can't tell whether these things are still there or not but they've definitely gone into the background, which i just can't stand. I originally was sold on Gearhead because it was a game you could fumble into without really knowing what you were doing. Now GH2 it seems you can only really play it if you know exactly what to do. The simplicity gained by compressing the skill system is destroyed by the rest of the game being that much harder to understand.

I'm not really expecting everything that's already solidified in the game to change and have it become a shinier GH1, but one of my friends convinced me I should voice these concerns.

Offline Frumple

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 01:31:10 PM »
First, welcome! It's good to see you're invested enough in the game to be concerned about its future :D

On the bright side, a lot of what you're having problems with is a content thing; not to excuse, per se, but Mr. H has (from what I've seen via board and blog comments) quite a few responsibilities that supersede GH coding (Family, work, etc.), so a not-quite-up-to-completed-game-par isn't totally surprising. Progress on GH2 is, so far as I know, planned to continue for a while yet.

On the specific points:

Re: Interspinner manual travel: Agreed, 'tis slim pickings for interesting things, right now. No clue what Mr. H's plans for that are, but the planned spaceship inclusion sounds promising for adjusting the issues involved there. At the moment, space is just a thing to mostly be ignored, unless you've got a ridiculously large amount of foodstuffs to eat through; it's generally more expensive, in terms of keeping yourself from starving, to do the manual travel than it is to buy a ticket.

Re: Inside spinners: There actually are fellows patrolling around most spinners, most of the time. Depending on renown and faction relations, as well as current events, you can also be attacked. It's still not fully fleshed out (I hope :P), but the mechanics for random raider attacks and pick-up missions (A few times playing Gh2, I've stopped in at the wandering purple *s and they offered to let me tag along with them for a mission. It's been many versions since I last saw it, and it was terribly rare even then, but it is -- or was -- there, which is nice.) are implemented. Still, it is, indeed, fairly rare and currently not terribly interactive, so there's room for that to be improved.

That's also probably the reason it's more difficult to get out of the spinners -- it's laying foundation for more complex content related to in-spinner conflict or similar such things. It would be interesting to have some sort of mecha-sized exit (or being able to make one ;D) or outside ticket booth to nix the constant in-and-out of port thing, though.

Re: Nothing else to do besides mecha fight: This is again a content issue, but an appropriately noted one; we've had a number of discussions related to it. There are several options to explore -- you've got some music related quest-type stuff and a number of SF:0 centered areas (Theles, various mines and ships, McCabe, etc, etc. Fungal infestations are reoccurring the money makers.) for folks that want to go it afoot, but it's certainly either relatively sparse compared to SF:2/mecha related content, or comparatively well hidden. I certainly feel your pain on this issue, but outside of user created stuff (There's guides on the wiki, iirc, but the mission code might as well be moonspeak to me.) it's mostly going to be a hurry up and wait kinda' thing. Of course, suggestions, brainstorming and (most delightfully) actual coding will likely help speed up the process!

In any case, it's good to see your comments. I hope you enjoy your time here :)
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Offline Vigilant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 06:49:31 PM »
Ahhh. It's good to see things being worked on then :)

Offline Joseph Hewitt

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
    • View Profile
    • http://www.gearheadrpg.com
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2010, 03:11:16 AM »
Thanks for the comments. I'm taking a short break from GH2 right now while working on a side project, but I should be getting back into things very very soon.

A lot of the problems you mention are caused by a lack of content, as Frumple says. One thing I should do upon getting back is to finally put together the universe guide (even if it's just scans of the raw pages from my sketchbook) and recruit some other people to start making content. I should also work on some tools to automate the content-making process.

Offline magic.coding.fairy.peridot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 11:38:13 AM »
It's certainly true that GH2 could use some more content. Perhaps a tutorial on how to add content would be good? I realize that plots spanning multiple spinners or involving new game mechanics will always be "developer" tasks, but even just adding new "stop the gang of muggers"-type plots would open the game out somewhat.

As for your specific concerns: some of the things you're looking for can be worked around by playing the game differently. For example, the trek to and from the spaceport can be avoided by simply staying in the spaceport and doing everything over the phone. This is hard at first because nobody wants to give you missions, but once you have a faction pestering you you can just park in the spaceport and phone for missions, rewards, and rumours of more missions. Trudging around to all the stores looking for that elusive Mecha Welding Set (or whatever) can be annoying. In any case, something like the in-game tutorial GH1 started with would be nice; there are the beginnings of this already, with that one guy in the Cavalier's club who likes explaining, but a more explicit tutorial would help get new players started.

Spinner interiors are dull not just because there's not much going on yet but also because there's nothing to see. At least in GH1 towns there were people wandering around and different buildings to see. Perhaps some visible mecha traffic in the streets? At the least making the patrols visible as sprites would make the places feel a little more inhabited. More variety in the graphics (for those who use them) and maps would also help distinguish them - currently almost all are just rectangles with randomly-located useful buildings. Theles' multiple floors gives it some flavour, for example. I'd love to see cylindrical maps, so that as you walk off one side you come back in the other, but I can see that's a considerable technical hurdle. Still, giving some spinners extensive farmland, others hulking factory blocks, radial layouts for the authoritarian ones, things like that, might add some flavour. Content matters here too, of course; Theles is interesting in part because of its plots (get up to the second floor, find out what's up on the third, find the hidden markets). There was also discussion of "theme text" - propaganda posters, advertisements, grafitti, and so on - but nobody was sure where or how to incorporate it.

Making room for more jobs, more play styles, is again largely a content issue. Some of it is already there but hard to find; for example you can do pirate jobs, but not right away (and you have to become criminal before you find out about them). Playing music is an option; you can busk and make a fair amount of money, and as your reputation increases you get offered increasingly lucrative performance gigs (which have a simple minigame implementing them) and there's a quest related to performance too. There is not yet a base-destruction mission, but there are "protect the ship" and "destroy the ship" missions. Most things could be added by just writing plot description files.

Offline L-Charlotte

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 12:40:21 AM »
mostly the second version or the latest version is always better . same in the case of gearhead .

Offline Trucidation

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 05:49:37 PM »
mostly the second version or the latest version is always better . same in the case of gearhead .

Really... I can point to you many games which have godawful sequels. GH2 ain't bad, but for a casual player like myself I find GH1 definitely more accessible.

Offline Frumple

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 08:43:28 PM »
*coughthat'saspambotcough*

Or just plain spammer, I guess. Roughly the same thing, in terms of moral quality.
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Offline Rowanthepreacher

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • [url=http://www.hunglikeanorca.com[/url]
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 01:56:36 PM »
ARGH. got logged out. Lost my post. I guess you get the tl;dr version.

Derived stats please. GH1 showed current and max. GH2 shows only current. This is not helpful.

Speed. I want to see how fast my mech is going and how it's getting there, like GH1.

Full text. The displays for weapons and skils gets cut off and so I can't see how much xp things require. working it out based on the Fibonacci sequence every time gets dull, fast.
I'm not actually a spammer. I promise.

Offline xpace

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
    • View Profile
    • http://xpace.awardspace.com/
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 04:54:00 AM »
Thanks for the comments. I'm taking a short break from GH2 right now while working on a side project, but I should be getting back into things very very soon... [snip]
One thing I should do upon getting back is to finally put together the universe guide... [snip] and recruit some other people to start making content. I should also work on some tools to automate the content-making process.

Sounds like a plan. And when GH2 gets updated, even if it's only a little update [hint], word should spread and fans will take notice. (I still check Ataraxia Theatre regularly for your web comics, so I'd probably notice a mention of a new release.) Then the forums will be abuzz for a while and perhaps more fan-created content will come.

Recruiting help should be considered. Though, I can understand the importance of making sure contributions fit your vision for the game. That said, having a user-friendly plot creator tool (esp. with some sort of instructions on how to use it) could go a long way towards adding more content. (I think the primary reason more folks don't make game mods and such is because of the technical difficulty and tediousness.) And I'm sure some folks would enjoy trying the fan submissions that don't make it into an official release.

Quite a bit of stuff was submitted to the old gearhead_dev Yahoo group. And I'm reminded of the enormous volumes of mods and user-created content for other games, such as X2: The Threat, X3: The Reunion, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Freedom Force, FFvT3R, Dwarf Fortress, and many others. (DF is not even a commercial game, it's still in Alpha stage, and the developer does not support mods or utilities, but there's still tons of them.) Another words: "If you build it, they will come."  8)

Offline DudeGuyMan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 03:03:21 AM »
I'm in the same camp as the OP. After enjoying GH1 with it's large active cities and overland full of random events, an empty little one-screen collection of skyscrapers doesn't feel like a "town" at all.

Just... bleh. It feels like a step backwards.

I really wish he'd just develop GH1 further. Add some more joinable factions (I wanna be a Bone Devil!) and enlarge the world. Stuff like that.

.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 03:05:47 AM by DudeGuyMan »

Offline Crucifix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
    • http://thefamous.ning.com
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 08:45:15 AM »
I'd suggest that the problems that are being talked about here are more a sign of teething troubles than an innate problem with the game, though I agree that there needs to be a much overhauled space/overland view - Just gimme a full map view of the whole L5/current region overmap like GH did with the world view and it would be simple; just look to find the spinner you want, travel there. I'd say this is one of the worst points of GH2 right now.

However I do believe that the game has the potential to incorporate other planets (effectively separate atlases via "shuttle to Venus/Mars/Luna/Earth") as well as spinners, at which point you could comfortably fit GH 1 into GH 2 with room to spare. More factions, multi-factional membership (why can't I be a crooked cop also working in the Red Mask Raiders? Who's to know?), more areas and a better overmap will all come, this is simply a content issue, and this will be fixed in time.

On the other hand, with the comments about empty cities - I think the problem is, beyond there simply being not much content to put in there at the moment (and I remind everyone with the open nature of the games Series files, they are welcome to populate the map with many little tweaks and sub-plots if they wish) that they are populated, it's just less visible than it was in GH.

Take your starting town in GH - How many people lived there that you saw? Twenty maybe? Thirty at a stretch? It's been awhile, but it's not that many. What about Snake Lake, total?

Your average spinner has a higher population than most of the cities, and because it shares its space with an SF: ~2 area around and in the spinner, there's actually a lot more space involved (in both senses) than there was in GH, each spinner is basically its own self-contained overmap. But its population is viewed piecemeal, twenty in one building, ten in another, not walking around from place to place, everyone showing up everywhere.

Now there are three paths to alleviate the problem, and they're both reasonably doable in the engine, as far as I can tell (though a codemonkey might say otherwise).

1: Make Patrols and other "non-hiding" mecha visible on the "overland" spinner maps.

They're not trying to hide, so show the leader's mecha flying around on patrol, let them be talkable-to, and leave them out there until their time for patrolling is done, not vanish home when you talk to them. Ideally they should have a fairly high chance of getting involved with any nearby missions you have, though whose side they're on depends on your standing with them - it could easily turn into a three side free for all.

This opens up other Civvie mecha - A taxi, for example, that your character can talk to the cabbie (cabbies are awesome for gossip), and even pay for a ride if they don't have a mecha. Or someone just driving to work (this would potentially require A-B pathing, or the person just doesn't really want to go to work....). Or a spacebus travelling into the station on a periodic basis (a "mission" given every X hours?).

Mecha going about their business would transform the lonely overland.

2: Neighourhoods.

You can currently park right outside Athena Mall and go shopping. Why not enforce a neighbourhood region for each of the given sections of the spinner (I'm talking about a large, outdoor PF: 0 area, where major buildings and minor buildings exist along with NPCs hanging around outside).

Want to go to Hovel Manor? You'll have to sneak past the rubbish dump full of respawning rats, the street punk gang spraying graffiti on the local corner shop (a small store with a simple selection of foodstuffs and every day disposables/goods that is a standard part of the area), before reaching the door to Hovel Manor, where entering will take you to the existing area just as going in your mecha would now.

This would give a much better feeling of scale. You can even have neighbouring important buildings in the same neighbourhood (L5 Law academy might be near to the courthouse), grouped by neighbourhood type with the population and incidental buildings (incidental in this case would be any minor building, such as somebody's home, or a cornershop, or the aforementioned rubbish dump "building") showing up as per the type; meanwhile keeping the non-incidental buildings separate as empty "squares" of building with an entryway (much like an elevator, except larger) will keep the number of NPCs running around the map low and manageable.

3: Handling Extras:

There are eighteen million people in Maquise spinner, why keep it restricted to show only a few dozen of them? And why do they stay in the same area?

Tier 1 of Extras can be handled like named "monsters". They spawn in an area, they wander around for awhile, they periodically leave the area and you either never see them again, or they show up in another area of town. They are red shirts, you might chat to a red shirt one time, but they won't show up every episode, they are never involved in the main plot (other than to die to the monster of the week), and the main character never forms lasting friendships with them. They don't even have cell phones. Luddites.

Tier 2 of Extras should mainly be handled as NPCs are now - They spawn on the opening of a map. You only need a few of them, since most of the filler population can be handled by Red Shirts. These Bounty Hunters/Soldiers/Pilots/Cops will leave to go on Patrol, or get their mecha serviced, or hunt a perp, then when they return, either go to their primary hang out, or move to another one (yes, this will cause a lot more use for the "where are you?" phone feature). These are mauve shirts, and if they are killed (on patrols or in an accidental fire) then ideally new mauve shirts should be cycled in, to keep the total Mauve shirt population at a constant.
Mauve shirts will give out a lot of the simple missions or help the player, but rarely would one expect them to form any sort of relationship with the player beyond minor Friend/Enemy status.

Tier 3 of Exras are the important NPCs - Vannis Abdiel, your family, Gordon Valeus, Shopkeepers, Trainers, Teachers, anyone whose presence in an area is reliable, whose presence in the game is vital and consistent, or who is generally someone important to the player character or to the game world/plot in general. There should be a very limited number of these yellow shirts, but again; nature abhors a vacuum, either yellow-shirts have plot-armour and only plot can kill them, or whenever a yellow shirt dies, they are replaced by a new yellow shirt that spawns into their original spot:
- Hi! I'm new to the area. There was an empty store space here, I've decided to take it over.
- I have been selected to lead the silver knights. We will not forget your hand in this Rocket Star!
- It was a terrible tragedy what happened to Matthias, I only hope I can lead us through these troubled times without him.
- Greetings, my previous ambassador experienced an untimely accidental death, I am his replacement.

Generally speaking, a show has more characters by the end than it does in the beginning, which doesn't much work if there's a slowly dwindling pot of NPCs thanks to some lucky/planned pilot kills, or the fact you took camraderie and just so happened to lose every single NPC friend in the game down in the Cayley Core one after another. Secondly this keeps the population of the spinner moving - You might encounter a Yellow Shirt cavalier spawning on a few spinners, you may help, or compete with them, on some missions (you may do both, as the cavalier will not necessarily engage in missions against the same side).

Offline Joseph Hewitt

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
    • View Profile
    • http://www.gearheadrpg.com
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2011, 04:11:46 AM »
Good idea about different levels of NPC. Also good ideas about breathing more life into GH2's cities.

Offline Petra

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Gearhead 1 vs Gearhead 2
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 08:51:05 PM »
I would love to see some random inside-spinner-building events. If a player gets famous enough, crowds should follow. Random beggars, muggers, attackers, admirers, and critiques should be able to accost the player randomly, (with appropriate options based on renown).

Then there's that Wangtta thing. I think having a reverse renown system that incorporates recruitment into shadowy organizations should be somewhat implemented. If a character's renown falls low enough, they should be contacted by Blades of Crihna, Mask Raiders, Pirates!, or even Aegis Overlord Luna (if passing a skill check). Where else do these factions recruit? It'd be remniscent of japanese and korean societies: rejects and failures get recruited into criminal orgs. Heh.

It's just a thought.