Question about mecha customization and modules

[Seriyu]

Okay, first, I heard somewhere else that you should keep your MV above -2, is the MV display when you're in your mech updated, or is it just the base MV of the mech you're in?

Second, about what level should mecha engineering be to install a decent gyroscope, and does the engineering level change wildly from quality level to quality level? Or at all for that matter?

And finally, I'm looking to do customization, where could I get some decent parts/weapons for such things?

For an example, I saw on another forum, an ovaknight who's legs had been removed and was basically a flying body with arms and a head. I assume to do this, you'd remove the leg parts, and replace them with thrusters on the body?

Thanks in advance, again.

[wipmeeniebom]

1) MV is updated. Picking up stuff on the battlefield or getting your gyrsocope blown will show a decrease in MV.

2) I suppose you mean GH1. You can't change/add/remove the gyroscope of a mech.

3) For parts, capture enemy mechs, pickup weapons from destroyed mechs in the battlefield, or buy mechs and take the parts you like. Sometimes parts appear in stores, but they're usually just "generic" parts.

4) Yes.

[Frumple]

A buncha' storage modules also helps get mecha off the ground if you're going for something legless. There's a limit to how many movement parts you can stick in a single limb/armor/mounting point (One of each if you're in GH1; still one of each in GH2, but you're going to need innovation and a ludicrously high knowledge/m.engineering score to pull that off), but storage modules make it a lot easier to stick more on a single machine. Their limited firing arc makes 'em better for movement/utility parts than weapons, though.

Re: Gyroscope question, yeah, in GH1 you're not getting the buggers out of the machine (GH2 replaces what gryos do with computer software, which is interchangable), but in regard to the second part of that question, it is indeed harder to install higher quality level parts into a machine, but, it's still not terribly difficult, especially in GH1. A decent knowledge/m.engie score'll let you do most things that aren't completely silly (AHAHAHA, EIGHT(Y) WINGSSSSsss! GUNS IN EVERYTHING! MOVESPEED OF ONE, BECAUSE OF THE AMMUNITION!! , etc.), and savescumming will let you do everything else .

[Seriyu]

Ahh, well that answers why I uhhh, couldn't replace the gyroscope I suppose. :p

And okay, That explains why I wasn't finding anything worthwhile in shops directly.

And by computer software I assume those are the items tagged at the front with "SW: etcetc".

Do I install them directly in the mech, or what?

Use them?

I haven't messed with them in a while, and I recall not being able to figure out how they worked.

Also, what are storage modules? I feel like I should know, maybe I'm overlooking something obvious.

And finally, on the "completely silly stuff" note, I've toyed with the idea of an all melee mech with  four arms or something, but I'll (obviously) wait until after the combat rebalance to actually try that, as it sounds pretty unlikely to be workable for now. :p

Thanks for the help again.

[RadonPlasma]

To clarify a few things:

As for items marked 'SW:something', you're correct in surmising that those are software.  First, be sure to notice in the description pane the 'SF:' number.  That tells you which system scale the software is for.  0 is for computers carried on your person.  2 is for mechs.  Assuming you play with standard content, no other numbers will be encountered.

Next, they must be installed.  In order to do that, they must be in the same inventory space as the computer you wish to install them into.  For personal scale SW, simply having the comp and 'ware in your character's inventory simultaneously is enough.  For mecha scale SW, move the 'ware from the Field HQ to the mech in which you wish to use it.  Now select the software, then select 'Install WhateverWare' (it'll be the first menu item), then select the computer you want it in.  Unfortunately, the computers will all be labeled 'Computer' in the selection pane.  In order to pick out one in particular, you'll have to pay close attention to the ZeG's (capacity) of the available systems before electing to install the 'ware.  WARNING:  Make sure to remove any software from a computer that is about to be installed or uninstalled, as software installed on a computer which is destroyed in an engineering attempt is destroyed along with the computer.

As for computers themselves, personal scale systems are available at electronics shops, usually as components of data visors and bracelets, media tablets, and so forth.  As for mecha scale, you'll find good ones installed in Ramuhs, Vadels, Savins, Rocs, Ovaknights, Chimenteros, and plenty of other mechs.  The ones available at retail are passable in a pinch, but are all default mass for their size classes, meaning that they're too heavy.

Next issue:  Storage modules.  To be fair, this isn't perfectly obvious (well, most things in GH aren't very obvious.)  While most modules have labels which include their type name, most storage modules are labeled as 'Pod' or 'Thruster' or something like that.  The Dora, Shard, Argos, Phoenix (which has a backpack!) - all are examples of mechs with storage modules.

Finally, a melee mech with four arms?  Not really all that silly, exactly, but still at a disadvantage in a battlefield full of ranged firepower.

Hope all that helped - good luck!

[Trucidation]

Playing GH1 here, I'd like a little feedback on my thought process on mecha design. This thread has been quite helpful but I still feel I'm missing some important things.

After a little experimentation it seems to me the more important considerations are gyroscope level and body size (tonnage?) - I mean, from what I've read, it seems like the holy grail is low MV/TR penalties right? I'm not worried about the third value (SE) since sticking in a high level sensor module usually takes care of it.

Side note: I find it curious why TR dependent on things like MV is, and not just relying on some kind of module like SE is. It stands for "targeting", right? And since moving while shooting is penalized how do aircraft-type mecha handle it? The few of those I've seen have pretty bad base MV (like -5) so I wonder how they can even hit stuff.

First step, shop for a mecha with a suitable body. I take it this means none of the tiny body mecha (1-hit-kill builds are bad), so something large with a decent gyroscope level. I don't mind having the cockpit in the head but apparently it's not worth the risk for the MV/TR bonus it gives. Usually I find myself looking at mechs with 150+ DP bodies and gyroscope ratings better than 1 (preferably 2+, especially if the body is particularly large).

Next I strip out the weapons. I find myself ditching everything small (DC<5), missiles and melee weapons too - am I mistaken in that Mecha Fighting means I should be attacking things with the mecha limbs only, or does using melee weapons also count?

I also noticed I'm pretty averse to ammo-based weaponry; at this point in the game (early-mid game) I'm still wielding those 10x10 laser cannons and that 5x10 BV3 plasma rifle with similar range I scavenged somewhere. I've seen a couple of nice gauss rifles but I passed them up; was that bad?

My mecha usually have only 2-3 guns (I remove installed ones and mount them instead). I've been worrying about the PV inflation mostly, and the fact that you can only fire one at a time - I only need as many guns as I can use without waiting for them to cycle. No guides even discuss PV, don't you get harder opponents if your PV rating's too high? This would be good if I could handle the increased opposition. The problem is I can't yet. I've even taken to deliberately accepting missions and then fleeing the field to lower my renown (it appears to be a factor as well).

Even with the imho modest tinkering I've done I usually end up raising the mecha's PV by quite a lot, which I find a tad annoying as the default mecha designs usually sport 6+ guns and missiles and all sorts of junk yet they have fairly low PV.

Or perhaps it's because I tend to get the MV/TR improved to -1 or -2? I do upgrade sensors but I don't go overboard with level 9 sensors, in fact I even remove redundant multiples and usually go with a single level 4 sensor or something. I haven't even started doing weird stuff like multiple limbs - I'm sticking to the base battroid design.

Finally, how do I cross the ocean? Wiki mentions I can skim over it, but I have arc thrusters on my mecha and can skim in battle yet on the world map the game doesn't allow me to cross the ocean.

[Onisuzume]

Well, a melee-only mecha can work...
Although some obvious problems would be getting to your opponents alive.
Which means defences and speed.
Speed is, in itself, a defence it it'll make you harder to hit.
Add more stuff that makes you harder to hit (and more resilient).
Then the main problem will still remain; large explosions.
I don't really think that it matters how fast you are, a nuke will still make you cry.

Finally, how do I cross the ocean? Wiki mentions I can skim over it, but I have arc thrusters on my mecha and can skim in battle yet on the world map the game doesn't allow me to cross the ocean.

Did you change the movement type to skim?

[Trucidation]

Did you change the movement type to skim?

D'oh, didn't realize we could adjust movement type even on the world map. It's pretty obvious in hindsight especially with the movement mode "walk" staring me right in the face - I assumed it was just displaying some mecha stats instead of reflecting the actual current status.

[Seriyu]

I kinda forgot about this thread, but okay, thanks for the help on the software, that really was bugging me. It's good to know how to finally use it for something. :p

And keep an eye out for pods and thrusters, as far as storage modules goes, gotcha.

[Trucidation]

Why do we want storage modules anyway? Other than attaching stuff (weapons, movement modules?) to them aren't they just additional ballast on your mecha's frame? Will additional movement modules attached to extra limbs/storage offset the MV hit adding the limbs/storage caused in the first place? From the wiki, doesn't seem like it.

I'm pretty much sticking to a "bare bones" GH1 mecha design philosophy. Head, body, 2 arms, 2 legs, some armor, computers, and a couple of nice guns. So far it's served me well so it's hard to envision how attaching, say, 4 more arms, 2 pods, wings, and a tail can help - not if I want to keep my MV penalty low.

[Frumple]

Why do we want storage modules anyway? Other than attaching stuff (weapons, movement modules?) to them aren't they just additional ballast on your mecha's frame? Will additional movement modules attached to extra limbs/storage offset the MV hit adding the limbs/storage caused in the first place? From the wiki, doesn't seem like it.

Mostly, storage pods provide something else to get shot off; i.e. make your mech tougher. They also don't suffer from overkill damage if the ammo in them cooks off or something hits 'em really hard, making them less likely to blow your entire machine sky high if something in them breaks. Additional movement modules won't offset the MV hit, per se, but they will make you move faster and thus harder to hit. It's been too long since I've played GH1, though, so I can't tell you if there hits a point where "more" stops being useful.

I'm pretty much sticking to a "bare bones" GH1 mecha design philosophy. Head, body, 2 arms, 2 legs, some armor, computers, and a couple of nice guns. So far it's served me well so it's hard to envision how attaching, say, 4 more arms, 2 pods, wings, and a tail can help - not if I want to keep my MV penalty low.

 A lot of it depends on what you're trying to do, really. Wings change how most machines move when they fly, ferex, and a tail can hold a shield, freeing arms for more weapons (Though I don't remember how that effects the shield accuracy malus.). Arms have a 180 degree arc, which makes them superior to legs for mounting weapons, but, iirc, you turn faster while walking than in any other movement mode. Arms also have hands, of course, which can be particularly useful. Also, if your legs are your primary movement source, you have problems if they get shot off, which non-standard systems (hover, flying) don't have. Of course, you can still crash if your flying oomph gets low enough, but it's a lot easier to at least skim when you're badly damaged. Multiple legs, of course, add a little redundancy (and possible more speed, but I'm not sure on that).

All that being said, standard humanoid (Battroid, natch) design works just fine, and you'll more than likely have enough space for everything you need to get by just using that. Anything else is extra, plain and simple, and only occasionally beneficial. It's just fun to pummel someone to death with your sixteenth leg

Eventually though, your character's skills will likely get to the point you can manage some extra penalty (Especially once you start sinking cash into trainers) after which sacrificing some MV/TR for extra weaponry and speed, or a bit extra tankage, becomes more beneficial. It's also (generally, if I remember this right) easier to install more limbs on a machine than it is to further overstuff a single limb, so extra modules are easier on a lower knowledge/m.engineering character, should they need to tote around more dakka for whatever reason.

[Trucidation]

Mostly, storage pods provide something else to get shot off; i.e. make your mech tougher. They also don't suffer from overkill damage if the ammo in them cooks off or something hits 'em really hard, making them less likely to blow your entire machine sky high if something in them breaks.

More targets, got it. Ha, blowing installed ammo - I loved whenever that happened in another mech game I enjoy (Titans of Steel), although that pales in comparison with engine explosions which have the potential of blowing nearby mechs off their feet and setting terrain on fire. Destroying a mech's engine very often caused this so it was my favourite kill mode if I didn't want salvage from the mech in question (because when something that large explodes, it explodes with a capital E). I was a little bit disappointed mecha in Gear Head don't die as messily, chalk that up to safer engine tech I suppose

Eventually though, your character's skills will likely get to the point you can manage some extra penalty (Especially once you start sinking cash into trainers) after which sacrificing some MV/TR for extra weaponry and speed, or a bit extra tankage, becomes more beneficial.

I think my confusion stems from not really understanding the MV penalty. I'm not really concerned about getting hit while moving; most of the time I'm standing still to avoid incurring attacking penalties as I shoot. Hence I'm concerned with not getting hit while not moving.

Or should I put it this way: is a small mecha with a low walk speed and MV of -1 harder to hit than a huge but fast mecha also with MV of -1, if both of them are standing still and shooting at the enemy? As I understand it dodge only work in personal scale battles right?

I'm currently using a 51.0t Radcliff-body design with MV/TR/SE scores of -1/0/+2, wielding a phase cannon in either hand - I have a class 10 sensor in storage elsewhere but my PV is already 1,651,888 points even with merely a class 6 sensor and class 4 targeting computer. Haven't even installed an ECM. Say, do you know how ECM works? It's not explained in the wiki (other than it's good to have and that it'll jack up my PV even higher).

Thanks!

[Frumple]

Lessee...

The MV penalty is a minus to your piloting roll. If your piloting roll exceeds their attack roll, they miss, basically. If they hit, the larger the difference between your roll and theirs, the more damage you're going to take. If two mecha, both with -1 MV are standing still, they both dodge attacks at the same rate, so far as I know. Providing, of course, if they're both scale 2 machines vs. scale 2 weapons, and there's nothing else involved, like ECM or whathaveyou. The faster you move, though, the harder it is to hit; for every X amount of units per time (Dun remember/never bothered to find out the exact formula) you're moving, they receive a penalty to their attack roll against you.

The one thing you're going to want, eventually, is to not stop moving, especially later on when you're heavily outnumbered. Certain builds can cut down on that reliance (Hull down, monsterous, etc), but it's generally not worth it to do so. The TR penalty's not as big of an issue when you get a good tarcomp into your machine and get gunnery/artillery up a bit. Effectively, the +3 you get to accuracy when still isn't really worth the +3 they get for shooting at a non-moving target, and the potentially massive penalty they get when shooting at a moving target is entirely too big an issue to ignore.

Short theory craft here: You stop to fire; you get +3 to accuracy. There's 3 enemies; you manage to oneshot one. The other two both now have +3 versus you. Your number juggling is at a net -3, to your loss. The larger the numbers (and you'll likely end up fighting 6+), the bigger that cumulative loss becomes. Were you moving, though, you'd instead get no bonus to accuracy, but each enemy gets a variable penalty to attack you. You might not oneshot that mecha, but they're all just got at least -1 to hit, getting a net balance of 0; and more likely than not, you're going to be giving them a much bigger penalty than -1, each point beyond further tilting the numbers game in your favor.

Yeah, the dodge skill is SF:0, or at least, when you're not in a machine. Mecha Piloting determines your chance to avoid a hit in SF:1+ fights.

Sensors primarily govern missile attacks, that is mlauncher weapons (Nukes, Swarm Missiles, etc.). I don't remember if they effect your sight range, but they're not going to have any effect on how well you hit things with those phase cannons. I think you need one to avoid a penalty, but the class doesn't really matter if you're not using missiles. Of course, your sensor rating is entirely dependent on the sensors themselves, which can make missiles a good choice when you've tanked your TR score all to heck.

ECM is an extra defensive roll vs ranged attacks. Iirc, the number on that is (ECM Class - 5) + your electronic warfare score, vs... something or other, I forget what. So you'll need at least a class 6 ECM or 5 EW to start seeing a benefit, though even a negative modifier has a chance to help out. Your craft score factors in there, too, though primarily through the EW skill. At least that's the formula in GH2, and I don't think it's been changed yet.

[Trucidation]

Thanks, that was really helpful!

I hadn't considered the numbers game much; currently what I've been doing is standing still shooting at something until I kill it or more than 2 other somethings start shooting back, upon which I pull a 180 and flee at top speed for a while and then stop, turn back, and wait for one guy to catch up so I can resume messing with his paint job.

So the best method would be to install high class comps and rely on the good ol' drive-by? Amusing Come to think of it, i think I read a complaint somewhere here where battles eventually resemble jousts.

Good to know about sensors too, my current character has an inexplicable aversion to any kind of ammo-based weaponry including missiles (despite gawking at the nuclear warheads on that Monstrous in a shop the other day). Might as well swap that class 6 for a class 1 and then tack on an ECM.

By the way, I've seen some smallish beam weapons with the INTERCEPT ability; they supposedly allow a roll to shoot down incoming missiles if they are "readied". Assuming I never use it to attack (to ensure that it is ready), it should intercept the first missile attack I come under each round, right?

[RadonPlasma]

The whole jousting thing mostly applies to air battles and the second game's space battles.  In general, ground cover (hills, vegetation, buildings) tends to make land battles a lot more interesting.

WARNING:  While low-grade sensors do have more dp in the first game, they still ensure a shorter sight radius.  Additionally, a bad SE rating means penalties to Awareness rolls on the world map.  You'll either have to bump up Awareness and/or Perception, or just deal with lots of ambushes.

As for INTERCEPT weapons, it's never a guaranteed thing.  Both Acc ratings and BV (for both, higher is better) affect the likelihood that a particular missile salvo will be shot down.  I believe DC only affects how useful it is as a regular weapon.  SPD, which determines how soon the weapon is ready after firing, may help with keeping that protection active (though I'm not sure it applies to readiness between intercepts).