Author Topic: Allowing Different Combat Strategies  (Read 1911 times)

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« on: June 07, 2010, 08:40:21 AM »
Since I haven't yet started on the combat rebalance, I thought I'd open this up for discussion here. Over in the Salvage Devaluation thread, peridot mentioned feeling forced into always using the same combat build (three basic mecha skills + initiative + EW). There's something to this. I actually kind of hate the secondary combat skills- Spot Weakness, Initiative, EW, and Toughness. On the one hand, there have to be specialist skills which give dedicated combatants a leg up. On the other hand, the skills have to walk a very fine line between being useful enough to take and too useful to ignore. The skills also have to be balanced against each other, which is a tough job for a game designer and also a tough job for player to figure out what's best for their character.

Ideally, your choice of skills and mecha should determine the tactics you use in battle. You should be able to choose different fighting styles and go with that. Is this how you play GearHead now? Is such a goal even possible, given the mechanics of the game as they currently exist?

What combat styles should you be able to pick between? Obviously you should be able to favor either ranged combat or close combat, or even ignore one or the other. The sniper. The bruiser. The ninja. The gun nut.

What about wiping out Spot Weakness, Initiative, EW, and Toughness and creating some new specialist combatant skills from scratch? Actually, I think three of them are workable but I sometimes suspect that Initiative is intrinsically broken. It's such a powerful ability to get extra attacks.

How could the rules be changed to allow for different fighting styles?

Offline JohnnyDmonic

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 09:34:25 AM »
Sniper: Is very difficult to pull off, there's almost no way to get any real range advantage, which is pretty necessary to take out multiple opponents with a slower single shot weapon. Without the ability to snipe from range to soften them up it's better to charge in guns blazing. (it sort of works if you set your lancemate up with a GR-24 and tell them to hang back.  Still, I miss extended range versions of LAS-10, things like that.  Or the PHS-8 having enough range compared to most other weapons to get a few shots in.)  I think the idea of a weapon tag that requires the mech not being in motion to fire would help some with this, as well, but more from a stylistic point of view.  Maybe even a tag for weapons that take longer to fire than usual.

Close Combat:  Very tricky to do on the ground, all but impossible in space.  I keep trying it, but end up abandoning the character before too long.  I almost never take mecha fighting, or carry a melee weapon.  I should, for a shield if nothing else, but then there's the question of shield accuracy penalties, so half the time I end up dropping carrying a shield anyway.  Also there's an unfortunate situation where as things stand smaller mecha make better close combatants due to heavy actuators slot cost vs gains vs the number of extra slots available as class size increases.  Plus they get higher speed, turning.

Bruiser/tank: Not currently viable, might be after the rebalance.  Maybe it needs a support skill of it's own? EW is decent (sometimes even amazing) for a tank, but to really get the kind of bulk needed to soak up damage you lose so much MV that high piloting isn't as useful.  Maybe a skill and a talent that focuses on reducing damage instead of avoiding it.  Currently the most viable tactic is never, ever get hit.

Ninja:  I had a lot of fun trying this, but it becomes a pain when you have lancemates and enemies and your lancemates are running all over the map.  Not sure there's any answer to that, other than soloing or just accepting that you're kind of 'support' for your lance.  Think I made it to the final battle a time or two with a ninjitsu, sniper, spot weakness/stealth based character. (tried it soloing, even with pumped piloting and EW you run out of stamina/MP and start taking heavy hits if you're trying to be all single-shot/called shots finesse.  Really kind of need to spray and pray and take out most of the enemy fast.)

I think one thing that could use more support (hah, almost punny) is an Active Support role.  Things an active support unit could be doing in a fight:
Once flanking fire bonuses exist stay with other units and draw enemies towards itself to create flanking opportunities.
If ECM changes to a ranged-aoe effect, keep other units in range.
LRscanner (useful on occasion)
If EW was turned into some sort of active skill, when not otherwise busy could target enemy mecha for temporary negative modifiers, or friendlies for bonuses.
Perhaps some changes to INTERCEPT so a support unit could provide anti-missile defense to nearby units?
Maybe change in-combat repair a bit to make it more of a thing.
Taunting
firing an occasional status effect weapon
maybe add a few more support/status effects.  deployable land mines, ways to slow or channel enemy movement

I actually don't think BV is too heavily out of line currently, and a big part of that is I feel Spot Weakness provides the proper counter-balance to it.

EW and initiative, though, could probably use rethinking, and possibly dropping initiative entirely.  Toughness I rarely take, but it seems like it could be really strong.

I think for close combat to become really viable again, the game really needs some forms of movement control and/or ways to grapple or lock an enemy into melee combat.  On the other hand, I've also noticed that even with so-so melee skills and a so-so weapon, sometimes I just do ludicrous damage with it, so maybe if it was made easier to force an enemy into melee combat damage would have to be toned down.

It's...possible, a lot of things could be tweaked better by changing the scale of hexes in combat.  If it took longer for even fast mecha to move one square long range weapons would be more viable, and close combat wouldn't be one pass then wait to turn around, come back, and repeat.  Not always good with numbers, myself, so I don't know if that would really work.

Offline wipmeeniebom

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 03:11:52 PM »
Right now, most combat is fly towards enemy->shoot->turn around->repeat

Ground based combat is bad (owing to most missions are in space) and due to the nature of flying giving you a ton of speed and space to move in (and therefore making you hard to hit;  noted already in another thread), flying is simply better than rolling/running. Talents like stunt driving and road hog are worse than born to fly -- not only do  they give lesser bonus (+2 vs +3 of born to fly), but walking/rolling is comparatively rarer than flying. Not to mention that all the higher end mecha fly. I'm not even sure there are any rolling mecha other than the chameleon, so the usefulness of road hog is very limited.

Close combat is a joke. Not only is it extremely hard to get close enough to an opponent in space, if you're flying close combat usually means you're flying in each other's airspace/bumping to each other and therefore stopping, which is suicidal in higher renown. Stop, and watch as you get pummeled by ranged weapons into powder. Lately, I no longer increase the close combat skills (they're now either 0 or 1) because its a waste of XP/cash/knowledge slot.

Tank/damage soak builds aren't doable. Heavy armor means heavy MV and TR penalties. A mech with a lot of armor against the same mech with little might as well have tissue paper for armor because when they get hit the damage is in the 4 (or sometimes even 5) digit range. Unless blast/scatter weapons are involved... and given that scatter will be nerfed (lose penetration), having less armor and not be hit is  simply better than having several tons of armor. Also, all the more reason to play long range weapons than get into short range where scatter is still effective.

My suggestion would be the following:

damage cap -- no more 4 to 5 digit damage from a lucky roll. Maybe just a max of double base damage of the weapon. As it is, GH is full of glass cannons (GH1 especially; GH2 isn't as bad). You either take out your opponent in one shot, or he takes you out in one. This makes heavily armored, low MV mecha viable since they won't die from a single shot. Armor might actually be useful other than soaking blast/scatter.

make melee auto hit -- any melee attack will hit, always. Skill just depends on how much damage is inflicted and whether or not it can be dodged/blocked, but no more to-hit rolls. This gives incentive to actually get close and personal, especially against speedy mechs. Speedy mechs are already difficult to get close to to hit with a melee weapon, but they're also extremely hard to hit when you do get in range. If a slow lumbering mech manages to corner a fast one, it should be rewarded with being actually able to hit said mech  rather than make another roll to hit.

Make rolling/running mechs viable - there is no currently little incentive to make rolling mechs. Maybe make wheels occupy 1/2 the space they currently do. I mean, right now, there's no benefit to putting wheels on a mech as opposed to arc thrusters/flight jets or ever hover jets.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 03:43:05 PM by wipmeeniebom »

Offline peridot

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 04:43:28 PM »
Maye worth thinking about: not every style needs to work for every battle.

For example, even if we can get a sniper strategy working - hunker down behind cover and single-shot enemies one at a time - there's no way to make it work for an escort-the-truck type mission where you're trying to guard a moving vehicle. Or an escape-from-the-horde mission. Close combat might work well in caves and urban settings but not at all in space. I'd say that's okay, though it does make planning your skills a little harder.


How can you make a sniper strategy workable? I think it needs cover (so that enemies don't even know where you are, and when they do figure it out it's still hard to hit you) plus long-range weapons. Long-range, here, means that it takes mecha with ordinary weapons a few turns to get into range to shoot back. Since a sniper mech doesn't need to move fast, these weapons can be heavy. Shots should be very accurate but maybe slow, and they should usually do enough damage to single-shot an enemy. (This is not just for thematic reasons - at high renown there will be a swarm of them who will start converging on you, and you have to be able to pick a reasonable number of them off before they catch you.)  Sniper players should invest lots of skill points in accuracy and in remaining hidden.

Automatic weapons-based play kind of works now: you charge into range of your high-BV weapons, and you pour a zillion rounds into the general vicinity of your enemies. It *should* be easier to hit with high-BV weapons, although it might just be a question of rolling to-hit independently for every round (which makes it much more likely that *some* will hit). I'd say BV weapons should have a fairly short range, so that you really need to get in close (any maybe weather a few shots on the way in). Skill-wise, you don't need accuracy all that much, but you need to be able to shoot while moving, and you need to be able to dodge on the way in.

Missile/artillery: launch area-effect weapons from a distance. Area-effect weapons should be really easy to hit with (maybe even easier than they are now) but either have really heavy ammo or do not all that much damage. This should include BLAST 0 (single-square) area-effect weapons, which are now called SCATTER. I can see two ways to play this sort of game: either go in lumbering with ammo that you fire off all at once then zip around in a much lighter mech, or just plain go heavy and pummel from a moderate distance. Short-range area-effect weapons are also a way to do damage to even the most agile foes. One thing to watch out for is the combination of area effect and status: this lets even an unskilled fighter with a low-damage weapon inflict nasty status effects on an enemy.

I don't see how melee can work in space, but in caves and urban environments it could be made to work: stay under cover until you can close with an enemy, then stop and hack them to bits (ideally with a surprise attack, but possibly in a sword-to-sword duel). The trick is to keep stopped combatants from getting utterly pasted by ranged fire from enemies. I think reducing or removing the to-hit bonuses for fast mecha might help with this, or (see below) uncoupling accuracy from damage so that you get hit but not destroyed. Melee weapons should do a lot of damage, and should be light enough that mecha can also carry some ranged weapons to reduce the riffraff. In fact, a very anime mechanic would be to make melee a way to deal with very-hard-to-hit mecha: you enter a big battle and shoot down all the mooks, but you just can't hit the Big Bad, so you close with him and draw your sword. An epic duel ensues, in which he chops off the arm of your mech but you finally manage to spear him through the body...

What does this mean about skills? Well, the relative importance of accurate gunnery is different for the three roles, as is the ability to dodge. Stealth/cover is different too. I'd like to see Electronic Warfare as portable cover, maybe affecting nearby (allied) mecha as well (so that building an EW specialist mech for the team makes sense). But the exponential increase in skill costs means that if you can afford a high level of one skill, you can afford an almost-as-high level of any other skill as well. So the only real choice is that forced by the skill number limitation. Maybe instead of Fibonacci numbers, increasing you skill from level n to level n+1 could cost n*100 XP? (Or n^2*100 if that's too drastic.) This way you can afford to really specialize - you don't feel "I need 23300 XP to advance mecha piloting, why not just spend 800 on mecha fighting in the meantime?". Of course the effects of really high skill levels would have to be thought out carefully, but I'm imagining that (say) a level 16 mecha piloting would give you a +16 to hit, so that a sniper who poured all their points into gunnery would be able to reliably hit every time. 


To make tanks viable, why not uncouple accuracy and damage? If I hit really accurately with a DC1x10 weapon, I should be able to do called shots, but they would still only do ~10 damage to the target. So a tank that's really easy to hit doesn't take any more damage per hit than a zippy unarmored mech. A hapless infantry mech can plink away at the tank for hours before stripping enough armor to make a difference. Of course if they can keep out of range of the tank while doing this, it might be a viable strategy...

It might also be important to rethink using open-ended rolls for damage. If the shots only do 10 damage on average but once in a while one does 1000 damage, sooner or later I'm going to lose my mech. One reason the Nethack wiki lists the possible kinds of instadeaths is that a good Nethack player can play a completely safe game: the know that there's no way that demon can do more than 60 damage before the player can teleport away, so there's no risk of dying. If there were a 1% risk of dying, well, you often fight more than a hundred demons... There's no need to make GearHead quite so controlled, since players can replace mecha, but a small chance of a serious outcome can make more difference than average damage. Zippy unarmored mecha are for gamblers - as log as you don't get hit they're great, but if you do, pow, it's kaput.

I think it's important to make sure that go-as-fast-as-possible isn't the winning strategy in nearly every case. (And that stopping doesn't immediately get you pasted.) Right now it makes you extremely hard to hit but costs only a little accuracy on your part. Why not make these penalties equal? You can build a zippy mech, but you'll have to get in close and use a high-BV weapon, a swarm of missiles, or an area-effect weapon to actually hit much of anything. If you want to snipe heads, you'd better stop and either take cover or be armored.


I think part of the problem is that space is too simple, tactically. There's no terrain features to take advantage of, so all you have control over is how far you are from the enemy and how fast you're moving. Formations might add some interesting tactical complexities; maybe an EW specialist with lots of INTERCEPT weapons could protect a group of automatic-weapons mecha and a missile carrier until they closed, then the missile carrier could unload all their heavy hitters and flee with the EW specialist while the grunts fight it out. This of course means you have to either control them all yourself (very annoying with the current UI) or be able to get the AI to act as a group.


Offline plllizzz

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 04:50:00 PM »
Also, IMO the engine class of the mecha should have a bigger meaning than now

Only overheating by using energy weapons/OVERLOAD status just doesn't seem right on a heavily-anime based show like this

maximum speed, ability to push your mecha a bit more, maybe even sort of an overdrive mode - so many possibilities to make engines mean something [high-performance/outpus engines for example, but more]

also, Close combat was actually my favourite way of disposing foes in GH1... now it's rarely as useful

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 05:44:01 PM »
I was thinking about this again last night. I believe some of the problems are relatively intractable, given the current game mechanics. I considered scaling up the hexes as Johnny suggested, but while this would be a benefit once you get into close combat range it would also make it more difficult to reach that range. Another idea would be to reduce the number of attacks you can get in a round, but this would mess up close combat even more because you'd have to get that attack at the exact moment when you're right next to your opponent.

If I could start over from scratch, I'd seriously think about implementing Tactics-style turn-based combat with strong position and control rules. Attempting to move through a controlled tile would get you attacked. A mecha would automatically control its adjacent tiles with close combat weapons; it could control tiles at a distance by stopping and providing covering fire. Everybody would get a certain number of movement points and one attack per turn. Many things would be simplified. This would be radically different from the way combat is handled now, and would probably require quite a bit of rewriting.

Argh, I'm doing it again. I want to write up a quick version of real tactics combat to see how it works! I shouldn't do that, I have other things to do... but then again, the exam period is coming up and I should have a lot of free time. Also, the engine was written so that this kind of moddability in mind. It's a good thing that I'm not getting paid for this game since I spend more time playing than working.

It might also be important to rethink using open-ended rolls for damage.

Damage rolls aren't open-ended. Usually when you take a lot of damage in one hit it's because of an ammo explosion.

Is there a way to put the skill used in parentheses next to its associated dialogue option?

I'm going to take a look at the code and see if it's possible. There would need to be two indicators- one for menu items which appear because of your skill, and one for menu items which are going to require a skill roll.

On a related note, all items which have a skill use should have scripts for all usable skills, even if the usage does nothing other than print an amusing message. This should encourage players to try their skills on strange items.

Offline Frumple

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 06:00:23 PM »
Maa, maa, so much hate for close combat... yeh folks seem to be forgetting the thrown/return weapons, perhaps. Mind you, I wouldn't say ranged combat isn't far and away better than CC right now, but stuff like the rocket hammer hits like a bloody brick, when they hit, and outside weight they have zero logistical issues -- no energy cost, no ammo, and the only limit on how many you put out in a turn is based on your speed and the number you're willing to stuff into your inventory. Plus they can multi-hit, same as other melee weapons, which means the potential damage output is vaguely staggering. Range is a bit of an issue, but no more than with the vulcan weapons or most of the LINE ones.

I pretty regularly shove at least a razor wing or two into my lancies, and on the personal scale a pure-throwable setup is a very workable strategy, especially when you've got access to magnet tokens. If you're already investing for the shield bonus, s'no real point to not throw in a few weapons to take advantage of it.

As for other points, several combat styles are currently limited simply due to battlefield geography -- this is a known issue, I think. There's no cover in space, or natural cover on astroids, and very little in urban environments, so stealth is basically nixed. That most cover that is existent ignites makes stealth pretty bloody dangerous to muck around with; fire chucks out a pretty intensive amount of damage (2-5 hundred is pretty regular, in my experience). Livening up space battlefields and implementing non-flammable cover elsewhere could make for some expanded options. More mission variety -- especially for low renown critters -- would still be a nice thing. The convoy and factory missions are definitely a step in the right direction, yeah.

The advantages to long range are kinda' low-key, too, since everything moves pretty quickly -- and if it doesn't, it's not really a threat, anyway. With a 100-range missile, I may get one shot in before I can start opening up with 72 and 60 range weapons, which tend to do far and away more damage (and reload for less, anyway). That most of the truly long range weapons are missiles (Which are plainclothes lesser than gun and beamguns; cost, weight, and in-combat longevity all being issues. They've got their advantages, but the advantages just aren't enough, in most cases.) just exaggerates the issue. In any case, the 72 and 84 weapons seem to be pretty dominate at the moment; at least, they seem to make up the majority of my weapon loadouts, most of the time.

What about wiping out Spot Weakness, Initiative, EW, and Toughness and creating some new specialist combatant skills from scratch? Actually, I think three of them are workable but I sometimes suspect that Initiative is intrinsically broken. It's such a powerful ability to get extra attacks


Minor note, I can't really see toughness as being a combat skill, tbh. It only really effects SF:0, and what it does do is superseded either by vitality, medicine, or disposables (the pills.). I've not put a single point into it, um... ever. Still, what sort of things would you be thinking about for specialist skills?

P.S. The real tactics combat sounds interesting, heh.
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Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 08:18:35 PM »
I have no idea for new specialist skills, which is why I threw the idea out there.

Maybe I should see if the CombatCheck test program still compiles and run some simulations. Reading all the comments and looking at the source, I'm not sure how reliable any of us (me included) are as witnesses. I'm thinking now about how GH's low hit rate turns out- it's kinda like playing slots. You might go a long while without hitting, then have a big payoff. Is hitting more frequently for less damage better or worse, or does it simply seem better or worse because of that reinforcement every time you get the red star?

Maybe there should be a different mechanic than simply hit/miss... again, if I were rewriting things from scratch, I'd be tempted to add two comeasurable defense stats- armor absorbs hits, while maneuver pool avoids them. Certain weapons would be more effective against one than the other, kind of like the old GW game Talisman. This way, a mecha could avoid attacks very often yet the player would still feel a sense of progress since the Maneuver Points went down.

Edit- I just did a quick test to compare the GR-12, GR-24, and MAC-4. Would anyone care to guess how these four weapons rank in shots needed to destroy a target?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 10:24:54 PM by Joseph Hewitt »

Offline Frumple

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 10:42:41 PM »
Edit- I just did a quick test to compare the GR-12, GR-24, and MAC-4. Would anyone care to guess how these four weapons rank in shots needed to destroy a target?


Hrm hrm... if I had to guess, I'd probably say MAC-4, GR-24, GR-12 from least to most, at least assuming full BV... but it'd depend on a lot. The GRs have no acc boost, but hit harder -- well, the 24 would; the 24's perception keyed, though. I'd think the MAC would be better at taking out smaller machines than the 12, and the 12 and 24 be about the same depending on the character's stats. Straight 10s, I'd probably say the 24'd win; standard combat load of 15 reflex 15 speed, probably the 12.  'Course, I've had a lot more experience with the MAC than I do the other two, yeah, mostly due to weight. A railgun'd trump 'em all, methinks. What's the target?
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Offline Ephafn

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 10:54:35 PM »
Melee combat can actually be quite powerful as melee attacks get multiple strikes, with a minimum of 2 (more with high Initiative skill). The only problem with it is the battle is often almost over by the time you get into range, and the few turns it takes you to destroy the enemy and fly away (if you actually stopped to fight) are putting you at too much risk due to the dodging penalty and low DP issues.

As for using it in space, beside the already mentioned Thrown weapons, there are also Extend weapons, like the extremely powerful Gugnir (spelling?) spear, with is DC 24. Also, with a good shield, you can minimize the risk of damage when charging, so charging can be used to stop both you and your target.

Maybe one of the problem with melee combat is that most of the strong weapons (DC > 10) and the limbs attack use the Body stat instead of Reflex/Speed. I don't know about other players, but for me Body is never raised very high, unlike Reflex and Speed who often start at 15. That may give a wrong impression of its usefulness.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 11:29:13 PM »
A Daum vs another Daum. The attacker is stationary, the target moving at cruise speed at a range of 5 tiles. The simulation is run 2000 times, counting how many attacks it takes to disable the target mecha.

The GR-24 came in first (with an average of 8 shots per kill), the GR-12 second (with an average of 10 shots per kill), and the MAC-4 came in last (with an average of 12 shots per kill). If the target is stationary the difference between the MAC-4 and the GR-12 drops to nothing- they both require an average of 8 shots apiece. The GR-24, though, does much better against stationary targets, needing only an average of 4 shots. I ran the program several times and got mostly the same numbers each time.

I tried substituting a Vadel for the Daum, and setting it to full speed instead of cruise speed. This broke the simulation; all three weapons required in excess of 50 shots to score a kill, so no meaningful comparison is possible. I think Ephafn could've been onto something with that whole "speed modifier is overpowered" deal... Against a Vadel moving at cruise speed the GR-24 still came out on top, requiring around 17 shots. The GR-12 and MAC-4 require around 22 shots apiece. Unlike the Daum vs Daum sim above, running the sim against a Vadel has given me slightly different results each time. I guess that the big speed penalty adds an extra random factor to the mix. For a stationary Vadel the numbers drop down to around the same level as the Daum- 5 attacks with the GR-24, 11 attacks for each of the other weapons.

This is great, though. I'm going to use this program to help with the rebalancing... it'll be evidence-based game design! One thing I've learned so far is that BV isn't nearly as powerful as I thought it was. The DC4 x BV4 Machine Cannon is generally less effective than the DC12 Gauss Rifle (note that I'm just comparing the killing power here; there are other advantages and disadvantages to be traded off in-game).

Offline Frumple

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 12:57:33 AM »
Could... could that program be uploaded to the sourceforge page? It sounds like it would be kinda' awesome to play with...

Probably be nice for balancing out user created stuff, too. I'd love to see how the various PV brackets contest against each other.
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Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 01:30:36 AM »
I've just committed it to SVN. At the moment there's no user interface- to change the parameters you need to edit the program and recompile, so I don't see much point in uploading an executable just yet. I'll see if I can hack something together tomorrow.

After classes today I tried another test with most of the weapons from the STC file. There was a weird result- the beam weapons were all really ineffective. Even the PAR-13, which should be superior in all ways to the GR-12, was performing way worse than it. After thinking about it for a bit I realized that all of the beam weapons were tested after the Mecha Bazooka... what I think happened is that one of the thousands of test attacks must have hit the attacker and caused an ejection, resulting in the later attacks being performed without a pilot in the mecha. The effect procedures can deal with that situation; inanimate or otherwise unskilled gears are treated as having a skill value of 1. I'm rerunning the simulation after fixing the test pilot in the cockpit (this had already been done for the target pilot).

Edit2- Two simulations, the first without Spot Weakness, sorted in order:

Code: [Select]
RG-16:     3  ($292950)
RG-8:      4  ($191800)
PHS-25:    6  ($607500)
MBAZ-17:   7  ($128550)
VC-5:      7  ($205250)
MB-7:      8  ($107550)
GR-24:     9  ($85350)
PAR-13:   11  ($331650)
MAC-4:    12  ($60700)
GR-12:    14  ($39200)
PHS-8:    15  ($270000)
SC-9:     16  ($29000)
PAR-6:    18  ($262400)
MRIF-5:   30  ($31250)
MAC-2:    32  ($14650)
PAR-2:    35  ($102050)

Next, with Spot Weakness:

Code: [Select]
RG-16:       3  ($292950)
RG-8:        4  ($191800)
PHS-25:      5  ($607500)
MBAZ-17:     7  ($128550)
GR-24:       7  ($85350)
VC-5:        7  ($205250)
MB-7:        9  ($107550)
PAR-13:      9  ($331650)
GR-12:      10  ($39200)
PHS-8:      10  ($270000)
SC-9:       11  ($29000)
PAR-6:      11  ($262400)
MAC-4:      12  ($60700)
PAR-2:      15  ($102050)
MRIF-5:     17  ($31250)
MAC-2:      32  ($14650)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 05:40:27 AM by Joseph Hewitt »

Online Francisco Munoz

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 06:17:44 AM »
 I like the current system and I think that will work with some minor changes.
 As said here before, wheels and tracks need some love as they aren't very usefull (and they are heavy, and IIRC can't be mass reduced)
 I really dislike the smoke launchers, they are too heavy for its utility, drop 1 ton from them and the ninja build really starts getting improvments. Also add some "space dust" at the start of some space scenarios (and if it gets out of screen move it to the other side of the board) Same for floating rocks to add some cover.

Offline peridot

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Re: Allowing Different Combat Strategies
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 06:21:52 AM »
This sounds awesome - evidence FTW! - but I wonder whether the average number of shots to destroy a mech is really the right criterion? A weapon that usually destroys a mech in one hit but one time out of ten takes twenty shots is pretty different from one that always takes three - while you wait for that twentieth shot to hit you're getting hit... perhaps 10%, median, and 90% numbers of shots would be a better measure? For later game, the right question might be "what fraction of the time do I manage a one-shot kill?" For wiping out the huge armies, I find I often can't really afford several shots each.

There's also the question of damage - if I blow the head off a mech on the first try, or overheat it completely, it's not going to have much luck hitting me while I wait for the other shots to destroy it. If all I'm doing is stripping armor, it's still just as effective until I finally break through and wreck it.