Author Topic: Robot difficulty  (Read 1626 times)

Offline peridot

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Robot difficulty
« on: May 30, 2010, 08:08:15 AM »
Currently, the Science skill level needed to construct a non-sentient robot is its highest stat. This means it's (more or less) no harder to build a robot all of whose stats are 15 than one with one stat equal to 15. It seems to me that this reduces the possibilities for variety in robots: for example I tried building a flying robot (with aer_drone sprite) with most stats 1 but speed 15, only to find that it takes skill level 15 to build. I suggest a very simple change: use the sum of all stats divided by eight as the skill level needed to build a robot. (Or seven, since Charm is special. Or charge extra for points above 15, as is done for PCs.) That way one can design fast fliers, slow tracked heavy lifters, delicate skill-machines...

I can provide a patch, and also a patch to somewhat improve the robots design file. Where should I put them?

(Also, the MultiScanner doesn't seem to provide the promised +3 Science while building robots, even if I equip it.)

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 12:22:29 AM »
Looking through the code now, I can only assume that I was either drunk or being impersonated by a skrull when I revamped the Robotics code. That said, changing the minimum skill level to an average of the stats is a very very bad idea. The highest stat is the most important one- depending on the purpose of the design, the others can matter little or nothing. Imagine: A design with plenty of inbuilt weapons and mounting points with 40 Speed and 3s in everything else. Taking the average, even if stat scores above 15 were penalized, would still leave this a viable design.

If you really want to make things more fair the way to change things is to increase the minimum skill level if the other stats are comparably high; I don't have a good idea for a function to do this, but it should be possible. This reply ignores the obvious issue, that maybe the skill requirement is too high anyhow. The basic skill requirement could be (highest stat - 4) plus another bit depending on how high the other stats are.

The Multiscanner doesn't affect Robotics since the skill/talent shift a few releases back. I should either add a separate robotics tool or add a robotics tool as a subcomponent of the Multiscanner.

Offline peridot

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 03:59:40 AM »
Looking through the code now, I can only assume that I was either drunk or being impersonated by a skrull when I revamped the Robotics code. That said, changing the minimum skill level to an average of the stats is a very very bad idea. The highest stat is the most important one- depending on the purpose of the design, the others can matter little or nothing. Imagine: A design with plenty of inbuilt weapons and mounting points with 40 Speed and 3s in everything else. Taking the average, even if stat scores above 15 were penalized, would still leave this a viable design.

If you really want to make things more fair the way to change things is to increase the minimum skill level if the other stats are comparably high; I don't have a good idea for a function to do this, but it should be possible. This reply ignores the obvious issue, that maybe the skill requirement is too high anyhow. The basic skill requirement could be (highest stat - 4) plus another bit depending on how high the other stats are.


I've been thinking about how I'd like Robotics to work, to make it useful without totally unbalancing the game. If you don't mind I'd like to try fiddling the code a bit to see if I can get it working better, then I'll post a series of patches or a git repository or something.

My vision is something like this: A robotics expert's motto is "who needs to be nice to people? just build your own friends!" So they can build robots to serve as mules, weapons platforms, meatshields, skill specialists, and pilots, in roughly that order of difficulty.

Building mules should be possible pretty much as soon as you start. These don't have much in the way of stats, though they should be able to carry lots of stuff. In fact even an all 1s robot with no skills can serve here; who cares if it's so overloaded its speed is decreased, it's one already, and you don't need to wait for it to reach the stairs. The only trick is how to get it to pick up and drop things so you can use them; I guess this requires party mode, which you're then stuck in. Pretty soon, though, you're going to get sick of these guys being blown to pieces by spaceworms and want a higher body and armor rating; no problem, a little more fuel and skill will get you that.

Weapons platforms should be harder. As it stands even with really rotten stats you can arm any robot with a glitter pistol and it'll blow up an enemy now and then (SCATTER makes it easy to hit), so there's no reason not to just build yourself fifteen crappy robots. At the least having a weapon mount should raise the difficulty of the robot somewhat, so that you need to work and raise your Science skill by a level or two before you can build these guys. It might also be nice to require some particular moderately-expensive fuel to allow a weapon mount.

Meatshields in mecha combat are robots that are just barely sentient; crummy skills, crummy stats, these are just enough to be worth loading into a scrap Buru Buru in hopes they will get shot up instead of you. These should require substantial investment in skill points, though the lancemate limit avoids the problem of swarming.

Skill specialists are an idea I like for other reasons (I think players should be able to hire them), but in a robotics context I think the key needed feature is an ability to control skill upgrading. I'd say just give robots the same training feature as other lancemates, so that to get a skill specialist you just keep building robots whose relevant stats are high until by luck you get one with (say) the Medicine skill. Then, since this skill is at level 1, you stick it in a heavily-armored Buru Buru and keep it in the corner for a few fights so that it accumulates experience, which you pour into Medicine. The only drawback of this is that the robot's liable to acquire piloting skills by "use", reducing its special-purpose nature. Perhaps getting the piloting skills should not be automatic?

Building pilots, that is sentient robots that can usefully fight alongside you, should be difficult. You have to build a good robot with decent stats and all the basic piloting skills, then carefully bring it up to useful skill levels by giving it experience.

So, things I'd like to see to make all this work:
  • Robot frame addons like weapons mounts, flight jets, hands, and so on cost extra, for some sense of "cost".
  • There should maybe be a number-of-pets limit (though it could be reasonably large; five?).
  • Specialist robots should be cheaper than generalists with the same maximum stat.
  • It should be possible to control robot skill advancement just like lancemate skill advancement.
  • It should "cost" something to add the basic piloting/combat skills.

What is the relevant "cost"? Raw materials are currently very cheap; none of the best available ingredients costs more than $10000, which is okay for early-game mules and weapons platforms but effectively free by the time the user is building sentient robots. MP cost is basically irrelevant since users can just wait it out. Difficulty level - minimum skill required to succeed - is a real cost, the kind that forces users to make tough decisions when budgeting XP/money for skill advancement. Unfortunately it's not a per-robot cost, so once a user has enough skill, it's just a matter of patience for them to build the best possible robot at that skill level. PV is a subtle sort of cost, and is probably not really relevant to most players.

I think the way to get "cost" right is to set the difficulty level for a robot appropriately, and to make really good robots require some very expensive fuel. Difficulty level should reflect the stats and the skills, in a way that allows for specialists, and also the body's abilities - robots with weapons mounts should be harder than ones without, and arms or turrets should be harder still. As for expensive fuel, I think I'd introduce some higher-classed and very expensive computers and power supplies and then structure the "points" so that you can't substitute a pile of cheap computers for one expensive one. Perhaps computer points would be the sum of the squares of the classes of the computers, and a lot more would be required (want a sentient robot? Okay, but you have to find and then buy a $100000 class 10 computer to get the required 100 computer points). One could also add cost and complexity by requiring robot control software as fuel. Want your robot to be able to shoot? Build it with Comet Metalworks' Target Analyzer - but it costs $10000. Want a medbot? Just buy MUGL's Surge-o-matic software. Of course this eats up precious fuel slots and is expensive... One might even allow these bits of software to be run in Data Bracelets to help player skills, if that's not too unbalancing. Here the high cost of high-class computers could be made to serve: if Surge-o-matic is 8 ZeG (say) then you need to buy a $50k (say) class 8 computer that will be heavy to run it on. A bit of software for every skill, priced appropriately?

Anyway, I think in spite of the length of this post, most of this can be accomplished with minor tweaks to the robotics code and item lists.

The Multiscanner doesn't affect Robotics since the skill/talent shift a few releases back. I should either add a separate robotics tool or add a robotics tool as a subcomponent of the Multiscanner.

I thought since it raised Science and robotics is based on a Science skill roll this would be automatic.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 05:24:22 AM »
The pet limit is Charm/4 + 1, so with a Charm score of 11 you can take three pets (robots or otherwise). These do not count against your lancemate total.

Mechanical mules would be good.

Mecha meatshields are right out for this setting. It's been mentioned numerous times that autonomous weapons of SF:2 or larger are illegal everywhere. For a slightly more technical explanation, a SF:0 non-sentient AI can't compete with a SF:2 mecha control system; its patters would be too easily recognized and exploited.

Skill specialization might be good, but I also like the GH1 mechanic where robots would randomly get specialist skills. Improves the gambling nature of the whole affair.

Offline peridot

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 05:50:01 AM »
The pet limit is Charm/4 + 1, so with a Charm score of 11 you can take three pets (robots or otherwise). These do not count against your lancemate total.


Really? My current character just built a zillion robots. Though her Charm is 15, and maybe "zillion" is only four. Anyway, this seems perfectly reasonable. Though, what happens when you go over the limit? Do you get to pick and choose the way you do with lancemates? Is there a way to get back ex-pets later?

Mecha meatshields are right out for this setting. It's been mentioned numerous times that autonomous weapons of SF:2 or larger are illegal everywhere. For a slightly more technical explanation, a SF:0 non-sentient AI can't compete with a SF:2 mecha control system; its patters would be too easily recognized and exploited.


I just meant a robot lancemate who could pilot mecha but wasn't particularly good at it, as distinct from a robot lancemate you kept around either because of a specialist skill or because they actually managed to blow up enemies for you. Autonomous SF:2 machines are a whole other kettle of fish. (FWIW, in a setting full of pirates, "illegal" doesn't mean much. But whatever. There's no real advantage to allowing them.)


Skill specialization might be good, but I also like the GH1 mechanic where robots would randomly get specialist skills. Improves the gambling nature of the whole affair.


Right now it's really difficult to tell what skills a robot has or how good they are, since the usual way of looking at skills uses the "Do Training" menu, which doesn't work for robots.

Skills available on initial construction can be random, I guess. But unless the price of building a robot goes way up, that just adds some boredom as the user now has to build ten robots instead of one to get the skill they want. And it seems to me that robot control software provides a nice way to jack up the cost while also reducing the frustration in robot building.

Skill upgrades shouldn't be random, though; given the large number needed to get to a high level, this just amounts to leveling up all skills equally. I think letting the user develop their robots into specialists who can be called in for particular missions adds a nice mechanic to the game. Tired of always getting poisoned? Build a medbot - but you need to carefully keep it alive and feed it XP until it gets to a useful skill level. This also makes robots a lot less disposable: losing that medbot you spent all those hours training up really hurts.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 06:55:17 AM »
Really? My current character just built a zillion robots. Though her Charm is 15, and maybe "zillion" is only four. Anyway, this seems perfectly reasonable. Though, what happens when you go over the limit? Do you get to pick and choose the way you do with lancemates? Is there a way to get back ex-pets later?

Now that I think about it, I don't recall testing the limit much, so it may not be working perfectly... If you go over the limit, IIRC you can choose which pet to displace the same as for lancemates. You can get back ex-pets through the FieldHQ menu, just like in GH1.

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I just meant a robot lancemate who could pilot mecha but wasn't particularly good at it, as distinct from a robot lancemate you kept around either because of a specialist skill or because they actually managed to blow up enemies for you.

All robot mecha pilots are sentient. Creating a sentient robot for the express purpose of being a meatshield should cause that robot to abandon you/turn on you/otherwise work against you fairly quickly... Remember, that's one of the reasons why sentient robots don't get used by corporations or the military. Their free will means that they react poorly to being treated as expendable, and even under the best of conditions they have a tendency to wander off and try new things. Also dedicated weak-AIs are generally better at specific tasks than sentient strong-AIs.

There isn't currently a mechanic for lancemates or pets turning against the PC (due to mistreatment, at least... villainous lancemates can turn on you sometimes). This needs to be added, especially for the inevitable introduction of biotech pets.

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Autonomous SF:2 machines are a whole other kettle of fish. (FWIW, in a setting full of pirates, "illegal" doesn't mean much. But whatever. There's no real advantage to allowing them.)

In that case, it's also the case of "life is cheap, mecha aren't".

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Right now it's really difficult to tell what skills a robot has or how good they are, since the usual way of looking at skills uses the "Do Training" menu, which doesn't work for robots.

Good point. Characters which get autotraining should also get a "Review Skill" menu item.

Offline Daemonward

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 07:38:32 AM »
Would it be possible for characters with robotics to repair/scavenge the robots that they defeat?

I can see myself wreaking havoc with a small army of Cleanbots. ;D

(Hmm, that sounds like a good subplot. A janitor has a nervous breakdown and decides to hold the building hostage with his cleanbots until his employers agree that he should get more vacation time. :P)

Offline Frumple

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Re: Robot difficulty
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 11:11:36 AM »
That... would actually be pretty awesome, I think, at least if you could repair and walk off with 'em. 'Specially if it applied to sentinels, heheh. If nothing else, the ability to walk out of that encounter with Sparky with Sparky would be all kinds of amusing. *dark voice* And then you order Sparky to attack his old master, helping your new minion, leader of the robot rebellion, as it cuts a bloody swath through the spinner's populous. Viva mechanos!

Alternately, being able to examine downed robots and add their form to the general list might be an interesting mechanic.

Oh, and re: pet limit, it certainly seems to be in alright; just checked by spamming data visor Balls around. Got up to three pets (charm 10) before the robots began being added to the general population. Mind you, there wasn't a choice of who gets displaced -- the latest one gets shunted into yellow letter status, heh -- but rejoining through the field HQ works fine... though the robot opens up with the standard lancie leaving dialogue when you dismiss them.

It seems a little strange that the robot limit keys off of charm, though. I'd expect pets to key off of ego (animals) or knowledge (non-sentient robots), but I guess the charm thing's just to simplify the mechanics involved. Last thing to note is that robots are 'animals' on their character screen, which is an odd thing to call them, yeah.
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