Author Topic: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?  (Read 1629 times)

Offline magic.coding.fairy.peridot

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Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« on: May 20, 2010, 05:23:34 PM »
I recently got a defend-the-cruiser mission as part of the main story. Cool, I thought, something different. But I spawned on one side of the map, and way on the other side of the map there was the cruiser and a swarm of moderately wimpy mecha. So I started zipping towards them at top speed, only to find that by the time my range-104 weapon could hit them - maybe three turns - they had destroyed the cruiser. I went on to obliterate all of them without breaking a sweat, but was confronted with taunting "ha, we beat you" messages and a failed mission.

Is there some way I should have been able to beat this mission? A faster mech and some extremely destructive extremely long-range swarm missiles maybe? It doesn't seem like I would have had time, even then; unless I could destroy a significant number on the first turn, or somehow distract them... perhaps firing a smoke launcher at the cruiser, to make it hard for them to hit? I don't seem to have many options here. I suppose if the difficulty is renown-based I could keep losing until the mission spawns with nothing but one Dora for me to blow up.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 06:10:36 PM »
The cruiser generates around the halfway point, the PC behind that, and the enemies on the other side of the screen. Checking the scripts the core story version of the mission places the PC a bit farther back than the non-core version (though they still start closer to the cruiser than the enemies are, not on the other side of the map, which may have been a bug). Did this encounter take place on a space map or some other kind of map? That may have affected the placement. Was it at the beginning of the campaign or closer to the end?

For now, I've changed the spacing in the core story version to match the spacing in the non-core version.

Offline wipmeeniebom

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 06:20:45 PM »
Wow, I was about to make the EXACT same thread, but...

My renown was 100. I'm piloting Zero Savins with 3 other pilots. Even before I can _turn_ to face the opponent, I lose the mission. I mean, at that renown, there are Krakens throwing nukes, and the mission starts with them _already_ in range of the ship being escorted (~100 m). The cruiser was rubble even before I get a shot out.

Anyway, I went back to the space station... then found the space station selling nucleonic rocs, which features +3 acc ARMORIGNORE SWARM missiles. I ripped out all the other weaponry from the savins and gave my entire lance 2 of these missiles, raised my renown to 100 and went into another escort mission.

The missiles helped a lot. Even if I weren't facing the opponents initially, my lancemates could fire these missiles and take out 2 or 3 mecha per shot.

Unfortunately, I now have a rearming bill of 300k.

Without said missiles on multiple mechs in a lance  (to help guarantee that at least one of your lancemates is facing in the right direction when the mission starts), I'm not sure the mission is consistently winnable at higher renown. Opponents start within range, lob a nuke or swarm missile, bam mission over even before I get to shoot.

Offline magic.coding.fairy.peridot

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 06:44:03 PM »
Wow, I was about to make the EXACT same thread, but...

My renown was 100. I'm piloting Zero Savins with 3 other pilots. Even before I can _turn_ to face the opponent, I lose the mission. I mean, at that renown, there are Krakens throwing nukes, and the mission starts with them _already_ in range of the ship being escorted (~100 m). The cruiser was rubble even before I get a shot out.

Anyway, I went back to the space station... then found the space station selling nucleonic rocs, which features +3 acc ARMORIGNORE SWARM missiles. I ripped out all the other weaponry from the savins and gave my entire lance 2 of these missiles, raised my renown to 100 and went into another escort mission.

The missiles helped a lot. Even if I weren't facing the opponents initially, my lancemates could fire these missiles and take out 2 or 3 mecha per shot.

Unfortunately, I now have a rearming bill of 300k.

Without said missiles on multiple mechs in a lance  (to help guarantee that at least one of your lancemates is facing in the right direction when the mission starts), I'm not sure the mission is consistently winnable at higher renown. Opponents start within range, lob a nuke or swarm missile, bam mission over even before I get to shoot.


So it sounds like, if I had the patience to bring my renown up afterward, I could get by by lowering my renown down to zero; surely the cruiser can survive a couple of shots from a buru buru peashooter?

My renown was more like 60, so none of the attackers was quite so scary, but a whole lot of weak attackers still means a lot of shots fired at the cruiser, and I'm also not so heavily prepared as you were.


It seems to me that you could make the mission fairer by moving the different parties. If the mission is "defend the cruiser" the player would naturally start between the cruiser and the attackers. If it's "you come upon some mecha attacking a cruiser", then this doesn't make so much sense, but the attackers could be between the cruiser and the player (so that if they turn to face the player they have to stop shooting at the cruiser) or at three different corners. In any case it seems to me the map should be big enough that all three parties are initially well out of range of each other.

Another approach would be making the cruiser tougher; if it could stand up to more rounds of attacks, that would give the player more time to do something. It'd have to be scaled to the player's renown, since a cruiser that could hold out against renown-100 enemies is in no danger from a swarm of renown-50 enemies. You'd also give it more armor and DP but not good weapons, since you don't want it to do any significant defeating of enemies (though there's something to be said, flavour-wise, for one weapon that did massive damage but was very slow; DC80X10 but fires only once every five rounds, maybe). I'm not sure this can really work, though, since it's a bit crazy to give the cruiser a "dodge" roll, and many GH attacks do overwhelming amounts of damage if they actually hit. But it does have some appeal from a flavour point of view - the cruiser is taking hits while you race to its rescue! I think I'd prefer to combine this with the above, so that the user pops up behind the attackers as they blast away at the cruiser and races in to its rescue; any attackers that turn to defend themselves are taking heat off the cruiser.

It's also possible that there's nothing wrong here - if this is a major "boss battle" in the main story, well, it should probably be difficult. But I think currently it feels "unfair" rather than simply difficult; it seems as if the only way to beat it is to use specific, strange, tactics that don't make much sense in any other context (e.g. lower your renown, have an extremely-high-damage extremely-long-range SWARM weapon on all your lancemates).

Offline wipmeeniebom

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 06:57:31 PM »
Quote
So it sounds like, if I had the patience to bring my renown up afterward, I could get by by lowering my renown down to zero; surely the cruiser can survive a couple of shots from a buru buru peashooter?


This was my initial impression as well -- in order to survive a cruiser mission, my renown had to be lower than what my actual skills/mech would indicate.

It isn't necessary to lower your renown (the was just a sideeffect of losing my first cruiser mission, -25 renown). I can now survive even at 100 renown, since upgrading weapons. Unfortunately at that renown, IMO, it isn't a matter of skill, but rather luck that at least one other lancemaes is facing in the right direction when the mission starts.  If none of us were facing correctly, I'd still lose the mission no matter if we all had 15 gunnery, 15 piloting, and devastating weapons.

Quote
It seems to me that you could make the mission fairer by moving the different parties. If the mission is "defend the cruiser" the player would naturally start between the cruiser and the attackers. If it's "you come upon some mecha attacking a cruiser", then this doesn't make so much sense, but the attackers could be between the cruiser and the player (so that if they turn to face the player they have to stop shooting at the cruiser) or at three different corners. In any case it seems to me the map should be big enough that all three parties are initially well out of range of each other.


I agree. But then, reading JH's post, it seems that instead of random cruiser missions apart, the core mission stories would be moved closer.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:02:05 PM by wipmeeniebom »

Offline Frumple

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 07:54:59 PM »
I'll chime in for the 'tougher cruiser' bit, pers'nally. Reduced penetration and higher DP would sound about right; I can only imagine/hope that spaceship armor is thicker than mecha armor, in general. Maybe a couple of custom themed-ish mecha attacking it that have particularly high penetration weapons or somethin'; again, it'd make sense that you wouldn't really use general purpose mecha to wail on a military-ish space ship, I'd think. 'Course, Gundam pretty heavily disagrees on that one, heh. Maybe let some Macross sidle in there...

And... kinda' a side thing, but what's up with the random facing at the beginning of fights, anyway? Is there some way to control it? Turning being what turning is, having to turn around can 'cause problems on defend/destroy the whatsit missions, an' it's generally annoying anyway. Maybe if you've been ambushed, it'd make sense, but not so much in battles you're expecting. Maybe if someone botched a competence roll, heh.
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Offline magic.coding.fairy.peridot

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 09:13:03 PM »
And... kinda' a side thing, but what's up with the random facing at the beginning of fights, anyway? Is there some way to control it? Turning being what turning is, having to turn around can 'cause problems on defend/destroy the whatsit missions, an' it's generally annoying anyway. Maybe if you've been ambushed, it'd make sense, but not so much in battles you're expecting. Maybe if someone botched a competence roll, heh.


I always assumed it was an initiative thing - if you were surprised by the attack you're facing away but if you knew it was coming you're facing it. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Offline magic.coding.fairy.peridot

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 09:25:41 PM »
Quote
So it sounds like, if I had the patience to bring my renown up afterward, I could get by by lowering my renown down to zero; surely the cruiser can survive a couple of shots from a buru buru peashooter?


This was my initial impression as well -- in order to survive a cruiser mission, my renown had to be lower than what my actual skills/mech would indicate.

It isn't necessary to lower your renown (the was just a sideeffect of losing my first cruiser mission, -25 renown). I can now survive even at 100 renown, since upgrading weapons. Unfortunately at that renown, IMO, it isn't a matter of skill, but rather luck that at least one other lancemaes is facing in the right direction when the mission starts.  If none of us were facing correctly, I'd still lose the mission no matter if we all had 15 gunnery, 15 piloting, and devastating weapons.


That's true. But I don't have easy access to awesome weapons, while I do have easy access to low renown. Just bail on, what, six missions, and all I'll have to face is a buru buru? No problem. The problem, of course, is the sixty missions it'll take to get my renown back afterwards... maybe I can buy a couple of Doras and arm them with cheap long-range weapons so that I get mountains of XP as my high skills mow down much bigger forces. If all the remaining main-story missions are renown-based, I might even be better off not raising it back up, just defeating them all at ridiculously easy levels.

Assuming I do decide to fight at a reasonable difficulty level, what sorts of weapons are out there? I think range 108 is the longest I've seen yet, and that's in weapons that don't really do any damage. To have won this mission I'd need something more like range 200, and damage enough to wipe out most of the mecha in one shot.

Offline JohnnyDmonic

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 12:50:14 AM »
Re: Range of weapons:
Without getting into player created mecha, the Century which can be bought in the Dusty Ring but not found to fight generally has Long Range Missiles with a range of 132.  Can't think of too many other decent non-theme mecha long range weapons.

Personally, I added a few, since there's little point to a sniper mech if you can't outrange your opponents by more than 1 actions worth of flying across space.  I also added a few mecha scale gunaddons, including a Sniper Configuration that increased range by 3.  Which is excessive, since the AI never takes advantage of kitbashing it's mecha, but oh well, I enjoy it.

Offline Randwandler

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2010, 04:49:48 AM »
Just for the record, I too consider the Core Story cruiser fights to be quite unfair. Though with harder ship aror, this might be less of a problem.

Another thing I would like to point out about it is, that apparently there are only two possible outcomes: Crusier gets destroyed and Crusier gets to live. Would it be possible to take into account whether the enemy achieves his goal of blowing up the ship but change the aftermath depending on whether his lance gets obliterated or not?

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2010, 04:58:22 AM »
Without said missiles on multiple mechs in a lance  (to help guarantee that at least one of your lancemates is facing in the right direction when the mission starts), I'm not sure the mission is consistently winnable at higher renown. Opponents start within range, lob a nuke or swarm missile, bam mission over even before I get to shoot.

At what renown would you say you start having a problem with the non-core mission? I've tested it up to around renown 67 and haven't had difficulty winning with normal tactics.

it seems as if the only way to beat it is to use specific, strange, tactics that don't make much sense in any other context (e.g. lower your renown

Just to clear up a possible misconception: Renown has no effect on the core story. Also, renown has no effect on missions which have already been generated. Lowering your renown will not make the core story or any specific battle any easier.

Re: Facing. I can see about adding a default facing for teams. That should improve this problem.

Re: Increasing Cruiser's Armor: I don't know if you've noticed, but the cruiser does get bigger and tougher with level. It may be that the high renown and higher versions are still too fragile. I'll try increasing their armor ratings.

Maybe this scenario needs several versions based on the difficultly level, with high and extreme levels moving everything farther apart. The scenario seems to work fine up to medium difficulty (renown 41 to 60) at least.

Offline Phil Munoz

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2010, 07:27:31 AM »
I got a mission like this with my char having a renown of 2.  I had one lancemate who was still riding his default mecha which was an unmodified heavy foot buru buru, while I was piloting a Galah with a few additional weapons (sliver gun, laser cannon, beam sabre...)  I remember facing a gaunt, a shard and a bunch of buru burus and maybe some other mecha... I was able to get near the cruiser to draw their fire, but by that time 2 of 3 parts of it was already destroyed.  It only took a few turns and it got destroyed.  My lancemate's buruburu was destroyed, too.  I barely 'won' the battle with a single good arm and leg after several turns of shooting up my power drained laser rifle at a couple of mecha who I guess ran out of ammo and were taking swiping melee shots whenever we passed close enough to each other.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2010, 08:15:54 AM »
Phil- was that in the core story or outside of the core story?

Offline magic.coding.fairy.peridot

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2010, 08:33:21 AM »
The cruiser generates around the halfway point, the PC behind that, and the enemies on the other side of the screen. Checking the scripts the core story version of the mission places the PC a bit farther back than the non-core version (though they still start closer to the cruiser than the enemies are, not on the other side of the map, which may have been a bug). Did this encounter take place on a space map or some other kind of map? That may have affected the placement. Was it at the beginning of the campaign or closer to the end?

For now, I've changed the spacing in the core story version to match the spacing in the non-core version.


For me, it was a core story mission, and I was very definitely out of range of the cruiser, while the enemies were in range of it. The map was a space map. I don't know how to tell how far along the core story was, since I haven't got past the mission (I lost that one, then got the same mission again at the next spinner, and lost that one too) but I was renown ~70 and the core mission difficulties were roughly in line with the random missions.

Offline Phil Munoz

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Re: Cruiser defense: unwinnable?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2010, 04:55:55 PM »
Phil- was that in the core story or outside of the core story?


It's in the core story. 

It occurs in Episode 3

NPC sent me to intercept a group of mecha from the Red Mask Raiders.  A henchman told me where to find the raiders in Cesena Station Exterior.

...

I have the savegame just before the fight itself.  I've played it twice with not much difference in success.  I'll try to put it up somewhere if anyone is interested in playing this scenario.

*EDIT:  I uploaded the savegame at the gearhead yahoo groups site.  This is the link if it works: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gB73SxXrtjZRJaP0m31olK6LfCksFCkmtfwzeGeIwgU08tYg4qjHm2gSRkkdPvY3PukqXIwn7N4LE5us0S8rm5a0ZEw9R40S/RPGRyuuji.zip
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 05:01:47 PM by Phil Munoz »