Lessons Learned from Dungeon Monkey

[Phil Munoz]

Re: Art

I agree that GH should focus on 2D art for now, due to lack of skilled 3D artists.

About the issue on the cohesiveness of the art style,  I think there's not much that can be done with portraits unless we agree that only one person will draw for all the portraits.  However, I  going Low Res with the sprites will help make it easier to make a cohesive style.  We just need a template that will be followed, and being low res means there won't be enough details to make any obvious style differences.

About the style, my preference leans towards NES/SNES era styled 16x16 or 32 x 32 sized sprites done in somewhat SD style... or something like dwarf fortress's graphics mode style... except in isometric view and with 8 facings...

I sincerely hope that facing will remain in GH, and that it would remain represented by the sprite's facing rather than just an indicator.  It would take more effort, but I think it's worth it because it's more intuitive.

[Joseph Hewitt]

I agree that GH should focus on 2D art for now, due to lack of skilled 3D artists.
...
I sincerely hope that facing will remain in GH, and that it would remain represented by the sprite's facing rather than just an indicator.  It would take more effort, but I think it's worth it because it's more intuitive.

I just drew a quick 2D sprite of the BuruBuru to see how it would look. Answer: not good. I'm not sure why the flat sprites look good in Dungeon Monkey, but in GH just look wrong... maybe it could work with a bit of tweaking.



I've also uploaded the paper doll worksheet with all the parts of the Buru Buru on separate layers, if anyone would like to play with it:

http://gearheadrpg.com/wp-content/uploads/sprite_design.xcf

It'd be trivially easy to add unique images for each of the BuruBuru variants, and possibly even to make a paper doll program for creating custom sprites (or, y'know, let everyone else use Gimp as well).

For creating sprites with all 8 directions by hand... I don't know an easy way to do that. One thought was to lay out some standard frames and use them for a guide? Seems like a daunting task to me.

[LomLom]

For creating sprites with all 8 directions by hand... I don't know an easy way to do that. One thought was to lay out some standard frames and use them for a guide? Seems like a daunting task to me.

Here's a few mecha sprites I use in my game, I made them pretty much in the way you say above.

http://img121.imageshack.us/i/btricewind.png/  - Icewind, this one was basically cut down from the Trailblazer

http://img651.imageshack.us/i/btrgalah.png/ - Galah, this one was edited from the Icewind above

http://img412.imageshack.us/i/btrwarcry.png/ - Warcry, this one was 'traced' over the Icewind

http://img413.imageshack.us/i/btrchameleonbtr.png/ - Chameleon, this one was made from your own Chameleon item image. Obviously the perspective is a bit weird on some angles but it kinda works for me.

I've had them a few months, I use them myself to cut down on all the buruburu clones (I also use that mecha sprite pack linked on the wiki) but I figured mine weren't up to the render standard so I didn't post them before. But they do show the method works at least, they didn't take all that long to draw (maybe a half-hour to an hour each) and someone with 1337 art skillz could do something awesome. You are welcome to use mine if you like any of them, vanilla or edited.

[Inu]

I actually liked DMU's gameplay a bit (albeit the imbalances and the annoyances of the allowed movement grid being off by default and some "hidden" features such as no obvious "skip turn"/"undo move" command).

On the facing issue: You could turn the GH clock system into an redone AP system (with alot of AP), where the player gets X moves and then it switches to another mech/player/ship on the field and they go through their AP and repeat the cycle. It would require that some movements are more valuable and cost more AP such as turning (Jets would have to spend 3 AP to turn 45 degrees, wheras helios/hovercraft would take .5, walkers would take 1, groundhuggers 2) and moving (jets have low AP cost to move forward, whereas walkers would have higher costs; reverse is true when going backwards, except jets wouldn't have that capability). Weapons would require 1 or more AP depending on weapon complexity (more technical weapons would be more costly).

The mousing interface (as in DMU) would probably require an "undo move" button for movements that made no impact on the battle as to make achieving proper facing and placement easier and less frustrating. But aside from the mousing interface, it would be good to keep the old turtle-system interface as well.

DMU's cramped and maze-y maps are more suited for personal-scale combat than mecha-scale (also lack of the Z-axis, which is important in GH).

[plllizzz]

Well, I really think the AP idea is nice, and after playing my beloved Avernum series, it can be mixed with a clock-based system quite well [random ecounters start in AP mode, in towns/dunegons you have to use 'combat mode' to change it]

also, I think about a system similar to Combat Mission, where you plan your move during 'stopped time' and then they happen in real time - that makes the flow of battle feel more realistic than turn-based system, but I don't know how it would fit personal-scale combat

there is also ADOM with it's Energy Points - the player and the monsters move in the same turn, actions have their energy cost and depending on that cost, you can get an edge against the enemy - EP are based on characters speed and the system is quite hard to describe [you should just go and play ADOM ]

[LomLom]

1) Ranged weapons and close combat weapons can both be useful. The balancing act is a bit less troublesome.

I've been playing around with a melee mecha character and I think they're viable, if tougher to use. Here's my observations (I should mention I play in Tactics mode only, YMMV in regular mode):

Mecha -

- Obviously the main disadvantage is a lack of range, but I didn't find that this is crippling. It would be if all melee weapons only worked on adjacent targets, especially in space, but thanks to THROWN+RETURN type weapons, if you have these you still get to make a lot of attacks. Magna Spear, Pilum, Razor Wing - all solid damage-dealers. EXTEND is helpful too.

- Leads into the next disadvantage: it's easy to pick up good guns and missiles of many varieties but good THROWN+RETURN or EXTEND weapons are quite rare. There are plenty of good examples on custom mecha or very very rarely in a custom part store, but getting these things is basically down to pot luck. I did get a good loadout eventually but it took a lot longer than it does for me to get good ranged weapons.

- I think you need Initiative and a fast mecha (I used a Vadel, a Pixie would do well too) to make it work. I don't think a slow heavyweight bruiser is viable because you'd just get mobbed and torn up. Maybe if you had an area-effect BLIND ranged weapon as a softener, I think the Bargol has Night Missiles or something IIRC, those would do it.

One idea to help balance mecha melee weapons more is giving all the non-thrown melee weapons a 360 arc if on the arms and 180 on torso/leg mounts.


Human scale -

Combat ranges are shorter overall, almost always in confined areas, and most of the best guns either have minimum range penalties or do area damage, so melee weapons definately have a place here. Melee weapons lack the mass carnage ability of the SWARM guns (Assault Cannon, Pin Rifles) but they can hit a single target multiple times with one attack and really shred it up; each approach has its pros and cons, I think they balance out.

One thing I'd like to see is more weapons (in general too, not just melee)  using different stats, like the Skull Cane using Ego and the Steel Fan using Charm, I think these are interesting.

[SharkD]

I have to agree with all of your points, JH. Except that I prefer GH1's graphics to GH2 or DM (maybe I'm personally biased...).

GH1 > DM > GH2

Though there still would be a problem with lack of 3D artists.

[edit]

Also, if you want to attract a lot of players you might try creating the game as a browser game and then syndicate it to multiple website. Not saying that you do or should want to do this.

[edit2]
Unless you want to use Lego models, in which case I can construct models fairly rapidly.

[cowofdoom78963]

For creating sprites with all 8 directions by hand... I don't know an easy way to do that. One thought was to lay out some standard frames and use them for a guide? Seems like a daunting task to me.

You could draw an arrow in the direction the mech is facing and have the sprite itself always looking straight at the screen:

like...
http://i53.tinypic.com/s2z0xx.png
The vadel is facing north west.