Author Topic: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times  (Read 1967 times)

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« on: May 18, 2010, 07:24:44 AM »
It's late, I am half asleep, but I got the release finished so here it is. Here are the highlights:

New art: The portaits by Ladi and the sprites by wipmeeniebom have been added. Thanks!

New missions: Not just plain mecha fighting! Well, aside from the "fight mecha in a cave" mission, but that one's special because you're fighting in a cave. Corporate, Police, and Military factions all have new missions. Most city types now have type-specific defense missions or other events. In addition, there are new lancemate missions for Competitive and Pro Duelist lancemates, plus one new character development for Junior/Professional types. Some of the new missions give more than one FacXP point.

Largo is Class 6: I increased the size of the Largo and tricked it out a bit. The layout is basically the same but it's a bit tougher than it was before.

Cost Adjust: Added a new attribute which can modify the cost of a gear by a percent value. Some shops will now have items on sale. In addition, the mecha you obtain from salvage have a very low resale value. To compensate the basic reward rate has been increased by 25%.

Shopkeeper Allegiance Test: If you're an ally of the shopkeeper you get a discount. If you're an enemy of the shopkeeper there's a markup on everything.

Numerous bugs fixed: Yadda yadda yadda.

Try it out and let me know if you run into any problems.

Offline peridot

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 09:23:50 AM »
It's late, I am half asleep, but I got the release finished so here it is. Here are the highlights:


Thanks! This sounds really interesting!

New missions: Not just plain mecha fighting! Well, aside from the "fight mecha in a cave" mission, but that one's special because you're fighting in a cave. Corporate, Police, and Military factions all have new missions. Most city types now have type-specific defense missions or other events. In addition, there are new lancemate missions for Competitive and Pro Duelist lancemates, plus one new character development for Junior/Professional types. Some of the new missions give more than one FacXP point.


Ooh, this I have to see.

Cost Adjust: Added a new attribute which can modify the cost of a gear by a percent value. Some shops will now have items on sale. In addition, the mecha you obtain from salvage have a very low resale value. To compensate the basic reward rate has been increased by 25%.


I'm a little dubious about this. Is the idea to encourage people not to bother looting wrecked mecha unless they have items that are interesting to use? (How can you tell without looting them, particularly with variants?) I'm not sure a 25% increase in reward will balance this - as it stands, the salvage/loot value is often substantially larger than the mission reward, even if you aren't awarded salvage rights. This also somewhat devalues taunt/intimidation. Is it planned to display somewhere the resale value, so that I can tell which of my buru burus I should sell?

Shopkeeper Allegiance Test: If you're an ally of the shopkeeper you get a discount. If you're an enemy of the shopkeeper there's a markup on everything.


This I'm very dubious about. As it stands I use shops in one of two ways: I go to the spaceport repair shop to restock, repair, and sell salvage; and I wander randomly trying all the shops in town trying to find the one that sells the elusive Deluxe Ration (or Mecha Welding Set, or Glitter Pistol, or whatever). When I find it I buy as many as I can afford because it's such a pain to find things in shops. With this modification, cities in which the spaceport repair shop is unfriendly become a pain to do missions in. (This is already the case when the spaceport repair shop won't buy loot.) And the difficulty of finding anything in a shop means that I'm still stuck buying a stack as soon as I see one, I just get randomly gouged sometimes.

Offering more stock to allied customers would be a real benefit, but as I understand it that's in there already (though maybe only for some factions?). I'd like to see some kind of shopkeeper modification that gave them more definite inventories, so that I could learn where to go to buy my Mecha Welding Sets (or whatever). Shops that offered high-ticket items would presumably be hard to get at, either hidden or faction-specific and requiring high rank. But the routine of walking around talking to every shopkeeper I find and seeing more or less the same collection of junk items gets old fast.

I'll let you know how the game plays out as soon as I get a chance to play...

Offline JohnnyDmonic

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2010, 03:36:26 PM »
Well, far as mecha resale goes, I just loaded up an old save and sold off a few buru buru and got 45k a piece for them, so it doesn't seem too bad. (Although I have shopping 10 or some such).  Have to see if the resale attribute is applied when they're salvaged or when you sell them, though, since those had been with the save file since .625

ETA:  Okay, the SALVAGE tag does get added after, just recovered a couple of mecha. 

HOLY OUCH!

A fully repaired 246k PV Condor sells for 4,564.  :_:

ETAA:  The salvage attribute appears to extend to the gear on the mech, as well, so you can't strip it out transfer it to another mech and sell it piecemeal.

HOWEVER.  This doesn't appear to apply to gear scrounged from the battlefield.  Time to ditch Repair, Intimidation, and high accuracy called shot weapons.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 04:23:36 PM by JohnnyDmonic »

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 04:43:32 PM »
The "low sale price for salvage" thing was discussed here some time ago, it's just taken a while to be implemented. Sorry if it seems like I'm pulling a massive surprise grinch on you. The reason for this change is that currently the mission pay is not as important as the prospect of salvage, and factions which do not generally offer salvage (such as L5Law and the pirates) are at a severe disadvantage. Salvaged mecha/parts are indicated in the sale window by a "(Salvage)" tag. Salvage is still important as a source of mecha and spare parts but it is no longer a major supplement to your income.

Edit- The Salvage tag will be applied to scrounged gear as well; that was an oversight.

Edit2- Because the spaceport is such an important location in L5 I'll change things so that the initial mechanic never belongs to a faction. I was also going to change things so that they'll definitely be a mecha dealer, but that's a bit more complicated, so instead I think I'll just add the "Sell Mecha" shop option to any place capable of doing mecha repair.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 05:09:25 PM by Joseph Hewitt »

Offline JohnnyDmonic

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 05:24:25 PM »
Oh, I was expecting it, it's just a bit more painful than I thought.  I like that repair/intimidation no longer feel mandatory for min/maxing, but it feels a bit over-the-top.  I just sold my used Squire's Helm for twice the price of a salvaged Buru Buru.  I was expecting sale values cut in half or so, I suppose.  Hard to say where the cutoff would be where it would remain a viable strategy compared to focusing on other things and simply doing a few more missions for the same money.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 05:32:39 PM »
Oh, I was expecting it, it's just a bit more painful than I thought.  I like that repair/intimidation no longer feel mandatory for min/maxing, but it feels a bit over-the-top.  I just sold my used Squire's Helm for twice the price of a salvaged Buru Buru.  I was expecting sale values cut in half or so, I suppose.  Hard to say where the cutoff would be where it would remain a viable strategy compared to focusing on other things and simply doing a few more missions for the same money.

I don't think it's going to be so bad, but as you say it's an awful shock. I think salvage gathering is still going to be a useful strategy, just not for the money. Also, as you say, it's not going to be mandatory for min/maxing.

Here's an idea: Allow PCs with the repair skill to scrap salvaged mecha for repair fuel. You could get half as many points as the mecha has. Mecha parts might also be useful as fuel for the Science skill when I get around to adding experimentation.

Offline Phil Munoz

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 05:41:52 PM »
About salvage, would it be possible for some places to pay slightly more than regular places?  I mean, sure, a pretty well-off spinner with good supply of mecha might find salvaged stuff less desirable... but certain shady places could find them more useful... say an illegal arena... or pirate hideouts...

Offline JohnnyDmonic

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 05:51:47 PM »

Here's an idea: Allow PCs with the repair skill to scrap salvaged mecha for repair fuel. You could get half as many points as the mecha has. Mecha parts might also be useful as fuel for the Science skill when I get around to adding experimentation.


I think both of those ideas are excellent.  I know I end up giving up on repair 50% of the time because I don't feel like figuring out where I left my repair fuel after I got annoyed with scrolling through 100+ Mecha Welding Kits in my main mechs inventory.   It gives the characters most likely to have (well, Repair anyway, dunno about intimidation) the skills in question utility in mecha combat from them without becoming across the board mandatory.

Mebbe Intimidation should be merged with Taunt?  On the one hand, forcing ejects is still pretty useful in terms of getting the enemy out of combat, but on the other hand both a successful forced eject and combat taunts are rare enough that having both in one skill might not be overpowering.  Frankly by the time I can force an eject most of the time I've spent way longer doing called shots or plinking with DC2 weapons and praying not to crit than I would have needed to just blast them.  It's a finesse move that generally takes more effort than just blasting them, and with the salvage cost change not as useful as it once was.  (As far as I've ever been able to tell, the odds of successfully forcing an eject on the one mech out of 10-20 missions you actually want to recover for it's parts is somewhere around 1000 to 1.  Meanwhile three missions ago three random buru buru popped their chutes as soon as you looked at them funny.)

ETA:  Also, any chance of a quick fix patch on the scrounged items prices?  I'd like to start getting into the habit/getting the feel of the change in available money right away.  As it is, I'm already showing signs of getting into the habit of blasting apart everything that moves for more scrounging.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 05:53:53 PM by JohnnyDmonic »

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 05:59:11 PM »
About salvage, would it be possible for some places to pay slightly more than regular places?  I mean, sure, a pretty well-off spinner with good supply of mecha might find salvaged stuff less desirable... but certain shady places could find them more useful... say an illegal arena... or pirate hideouts...

In that case, the location should offer higher prices for mecha in general, shouldn't it?

Mebbe Intimidation should be merged with Taunt?  On the one hand, forcing ejects is still pretty useful in terms of getting the enemy out of combat, but on the other hand both a successful forced eject and combat taunts are rare enough that having both in one skill might not be overpowering.  Frankly by the time I can force an eject most of the time I've spent way longer doing called shots or plinking with DC2 weapons and praying not to crit than I would have needed to just blast them.  It's a finesse move that generally takes more effort than just blasting them, and with the salvage cost change not as useful as it once was.  (As far as I've ever been able to tell, the odds of successfully forcing an eject on the one mech out of 10-20 missions you actually want to recover for it's parts is somewhere around 1000 to 1.  Meanwhile three missions ago three random buru buru popped their chutes as soon as you looked at them funny.)

Intimidation is used for a lot more than just forcing ejections. Also, if you want to force a particular pilot to eject, don't wait for it to happen randomly- get close to them and use the (t)alk command. Actively threatening works a whole lot better than just looking scary.

Quote
ETA:  Also, any chance of a quick fix patch on the scrounged items prices?  I'd like to start getting into the habit/getting the feel of the change in available money right away.  As it is, I'm already showing signs of getting into the habit of blasting apart everything that moves for more scrounging.

If you can use SVN, I'll let you know when I commit the current changes tonight.

Offline wipmeeniebom

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 09:34:21 PM »
Wow, salvage is like, 1/30th of the buying price.

I'm spending more on rearming then I am recouping from the mission rewards and salvaging.

Also. it seems that the salvage tag only appear on parts/mecha that are placed into the field HQ. Parts which end up inside the mech inventory _don't_ have the salvage tag.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 10:17:57 PM by wipmeeniebom »

Offline SharkD

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 01:54:44 AM »
New missions: Not just plain mecha fighting! Well, aside from the "fight mecha in a cave" mission, but that one's special because you're fighting in a cave. Corporate, Police, and Military factions all have new missions. Most city types now have type-specific defense missions or other events. In addition, there are new lancemate missions for Competitive and Pro Duelist lancemates, plus one new character development for Junior/Professional types. Some of the new missions give more than one FacXP point.

Could you please describe some of the Corporate, Police, and Military missions?

Cost Adjust: Added a new attribute which can modify the cost of a gear by a percent value. Some shops will now have items on sale. In addition, the mecha you obtain from salvage have a very low resale value. To compensate the basic reward rate has been increased by 25%.

Sales are nice.

Shopkeeper Allegiance Test: If you're an ally of the shopkeeper you get a discount. If you're an enemy of the shopkeeper there's a markup on everything.

Is the enemy/ally status binary? What I mean is, is it possible to be neither an enemy nor an ally?

Oh, I was expecting it, it's just a bit more painful than I thought.  I like that repair/intimidation no longer feel mandatory for min/maxing, but it feels a bit over-the-top.  I just sold my used Squire's Helm for twice the price of a salvaged Buru Buru.  I was expecting sale values cut in half or so, I suppose.  Hard to say where the cutoff would be where it would remain a viable strategy compared to focusing on other things and simply doing a few more missions for the same money.

Instead of reducing salvage prices across the board, I would suggest instead simply making it more likely that the salvage is heavily damaged and thus justifiably worthless. Any issues this might create?

About salvage, would it be possible for some places to pay slightly more than regular places?  I mean, sure, a pretty well-off spinner with good supply of mecha might find salvaged stuff less desirable... but certain shady places could find them more useful... say an illegal arena... or pirate hideouts...

I also agree with this.

Oh, I was expecting it, it's just a bit more painful than I thought.  I like that repair/intimidation no longer feel mandatory for min/maxing, but it feels a bit over-the-top.  I just sold my used Squire's Helm for twice the price of a salvaged Buru Buru.  I was expecting sale values cut in half or so, I suppose.  Hard to say where the cutoff would be where it would remain a viable strategy compared to focusing on other things and simply doing a few more missions for the same money.

Instead of blanket reductions to salvage across the board you might instead just make it more likely salvage is heavily damaged and thus justifiably worthless. If players really want to salvage things they could maybe be more careful about targeted shots or use Intimidate.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 02:10:25 AM by SharkD »

Offline Phil Munoz

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2010, 04:34:09 AM »
Instead of reducing salvage prices across the board, I would suggest instead simply making it more likely that the salvage is heavily damaged and thus justifiably worthless. Any issues this might create?

...

Instead of blanket reductions to salvage across the board you might instead just make it more likely salvage is heavily damaged and thus justifiably worthless. If players really want to salvage things they could maybe be more careful about targeted shots or use Intimidate.


I also think salvage can be better rebalanced by making it much harder to secure salvage.  Here are some ideas:

1. In the case of intimidation, it should be possible for the enemy to flee the map with his mecha, rather than just ejecting out of it.  Maybe during the skill check, a bad roll fails, a good roll makes them flee, an excellent roll makes them eject.

2. Enemy AI should be able to retreat.  Especially in cases where the enemy has a leader or commander.  They should be able to decide that they are losing the battle and try to retreat to cut their losses... and the player will have less pickings for salvage.

3. Partial Salvage rights for some missions.  The faction you're working for will conveniently pop up after the battle and claim part of the loot for whatever random excuse they could come up with.  Police factions will collect salvage as "evidence" or corporate factions will claim they want the salvage for "R&D purposes to investigate the competition".

4. Scavengers... we can have some stealthy mecha lurking out of sight waiting for the end of a battle, then they would rush out and steal the salvage.

5. I would call on the anime cliche of explodey mecha that destroyed mecha tend to blow up real bad that they would pretty much disintegrate the entire thing.

 


Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 04:38:03 AM »
I'm spending more on rearming then I am recouping from the mission rewards and salvaging.

How much are you spending on rearming? I'm assuming that the repair is much less.

Edit- I've just committed today's changes, for anyone who wants to try them out right away.

Phil- Let's see how this works out first, then go from there. The reason why I chose this method for rebalancing salvage is that it was easy. If it's no good, we can try something else.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 06:33:29 AM by Joseph Hewitt »

Offline peridot

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2010, 11:36:57 AM »
I'm spending more on rearming then I am recouping from the mission rewards and salvaging.

How much are you spending on rearming? I'm assuming that the repair is much less.


It depends on the weapon. I've had rearming bills for ~300 000 when I was still at renown ~30. I eventually figured out that it was my lancemates firing off all the Hurricane Missiles in the Corriach I had captured, so I swapped them for a less effective but cheaper to fire weapon.

Edit- I've just committed today's changes, for anyone who wants to try them out right away.

Phil- Let's see how this works out first, then go from there. The reason why I chose this method for rebalancing salvage is that it was easy. If it's no good, we can try something else.


I think the main reason people (e.g. me) are squawking is because this breaks the basic roguelike mechanic of "kill things, take their stuff back to the store and sell it to pay for resupplying". In a way, though, it was already partly broken in gearhead: since you go back to the store after pretty much every battle to reload, and there's no hard limit to what you can carry, there's no reason ever to leave something on the battlefield. So you might as well haul it all back to the store, almost no matter how little they pay you for it. (And they were already ripping you off by paying you something like a tenth the buy price.) Add to this the fact that you can (or could, in GH1) gain general experience by repairing damaged hardware, and there's a pretty strong incentive to scavenge everything you can from the battlefield.

In Nethack, stores are rare and money is not all that useful, so you don't usually bother hauling everything you find back to the store to sell unless there's something you desperately need to buy there. In Angband, stores and money are more useful, but you have very limited carrying capacity, so you have to pick and choose only the omst valuable items to haul back and sell. The author of Crawl decided this mechanic was boring and made the slat-out rule that stores don't buy, so there's no reason to pick something up unless you're going to use it.

For GearHead, the question is, should people be hauling all the battlefield scrap back to the store to sell? Is that a good mechanic for the game?

If the answer is yes, then the game could be balanced to accomodate that - mission cash rewards reduced, no-salvage missions given some in-game justification and some appropriate reward (e.g. a new mech, though maybe of no better quality than what you fought), and so on. (This would include better rewards for personal-scale missions, necessarily.) I don't really see how to force a nethack- or angband-like pick-and-choose mechanic, given the extremely tight weight limits on customized mecha and the frequent returns to the store.

If the answer is no, then something fairly drastic has to be done. Giving no, or virtually no, money for salvage has the effect of still allowing users to scavenge useful parts, while discouraging them from grabbing everything. Making less loot available would be even more radical, but would force users to prowl the stores hoping to find one that sells a Savin, or worse, some random junky mech that happens to have that cool weight-reduced railgun you're looking for. The only problem I see with this is in-game explanations. If I have two identical railguns, completely repaired, which function identically, why is some dirty black-marketeer going to care that one of them came off a destroyed mech and offer me a tenth the money for it?

In practice, I find that with the new modifications I often just look around the battlefield at the wrecks, and if it's all familiar types of mech I just leave them there. This makes battles much quicker, so that even though I make a lot less money per battle (1.25 times the old reward instead of 2-3 times) I fight more battles. It does mean that reloads and repairs are more of an issue - an expensive weapon gets a lot more expensive if the reward per battle goes down.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: GearHead2 v0.626, Real Good Times
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2010, 05:49:20 PM »
I think the main reason people (e.g. me) are squawking is because this breaks the basic roguelike mechanic of "kill things, take their stuff back to the store and sell it to pay for resupplying".

I didn't even think about looting when making this change. Even though looting and salvaging both have the effect of converting defeated enemies into cash, they should probably be looked at as separate things- Getting salvage is fun, you have to try for called shots or intimidation. Looting, on the other hand, is just tedious. I don't usually do it unless I'm desperate for cash. Although I want to keep salvage as fun as possible, I don't particularly care if looting is discouraged.

It seems to me that there's probably some MMORPG-style operant conditioning effect with looting... which is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you. All RPGs do it. The problem is that the behaviour being reinforced isn't fun in and of itself.

This reminds me of an article at Cracked, not usually known as a bastion of scholarly analysis but sometimes kinda thought-provoking:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

I just had an idea- One of the reasons salvage is fun is that you can get extra rewards for extra effort. Maybe missions need some more things like that- something where you can get a bigger reward from better performance. The sewer mission in GH1 works that way; you can push yourself as far as you want and the reward scales proportionally. It's something to think about.

Quote
For GearHead, the question is, should people be hauling all the battlefield scrap back to the store to sell? Is that a good mechanic for the game?
...
If the answer is no, then something fairly drastic has to be done.

Like reducing the sale price by 90%. Let's see how it works.

...

I'm going to wait for a few days and then make a new release with hopefully most of the v0.626 bugs and problems fixed. I realize that I'm not giving a lot of time for playtesting, but see how the new salvage/reward rates are working and I'll adjust the numbers if necessary. I'm not expecting any big problems because I've played through several times with L5Law so I know it's quite possible to win without relying on salvage at all, but at the same time I realize that salvage has been a big part of the game up to this point and forms a major part of many people's strategies.

After v0.627, I'm going to start work on the combat system readjustments. Since these changes are definitely going to break save file compatibility I'll try to work in the other save-breaking changes on the list at the same time (updating the core story stub, reducing number of mission-givers, changing the faction script).