Playing with half mecha damage and half speed accuracy penalty (a victory dump)

[Ephafn]

I recently completed a GH2 game. As this is my third play-through, it isn't a major new. However, I did some modifications to the game that deserve comments.
First was to fix these bugs: http://www.gearheadrpg.com/forum/index.php/topic,1241.0.html. Pretty trivial, and I didn't solve the BLIND bug either.

Second was related to that topic (about full speed being too powerful) : http://www.gearheadrpg.com/forum/index.php/topic,1240.0.html . What I did was to half how much damage was dealt by SF:1 and SF:2 attacks (in short, for SF:2, I multiplied damage by 10 instead of 20). Also, I halved how much accuracy penalty you get from shooting at moving target (-1 per 40 speed instead of -1 per 20).

Beside that, the only cheating have done was to reload whenever my nurse lancemate got killed in Cayley Cave, and also at the beginning of the game to get an interesting initial lancemate.


The playthrought

I played as a faction-less singer full of cyberware. My strong stats were Reflex, Speed and Charm; while my dump stats were Perception and Craft. My first lancemate was a shopkeeper with both repair and taunt, while my second one (from doing the "I need a new lancemate" main story branch) was a nurse with medicine and taunt. I got lucky and my first lancemate also learned mecha engineering. My last and third lancemate was some random mercenary, whose only non-basic skills were taunt (again) and toughness (useless).

For money I did criminal missions and I sang. The singing was not a great source of money until I got Perfect Pitch Ears, which allowed me to get around 100k$ every time I sang. So I was filthy rich and thus got a lot of training.

My main story enemy was Comet, which led to some impressive looking battles, as they have access to one of the most powerful TROOPER mecha: the Savin. Fighting 5 or 6 Savins at once could be fun. Late in the story, MUGL offered me a sponsorship and kept asking me to join them (which I refused to keep my character faction-less). I got friendly with my first nemesis, but he still showed up against in the final battle (I wanted to turn him as an ally, which I wasn't able to find how to). Then I killed the new nemesis BFF, because even if I defeated him soundly with non-lethal attacks, he still blew up his ship.


Comments

Reduced damage and speed penalty
I found the game way better that way. On a future gameplay, I'm contemplating to also reduce SF:0 damage. It makes the battle last longer (making ammo limits pertinent), and hitting your target was not too hard. So instead of having lots of mechas get one-shot, I had to beat them to submission before they blew up. And I wasn't afraid of stopping my mecha and getting one-shot myself too, so I only went at full speed to keep up with my suicidal lancemates or to reach the enemy. Reaching the enemy without having them be already dead also made melee attacks used a lot more often (even in space).

Of course the balance was a little out of whack. The main differences are that it made melee attacks much more useful, and low ammo weapons (ie: missiles and sometimes energy weapons) less powerful. Also longer battles = more attacks = more skill rolls = more XP / Skill XP. So mecha-related skills got raised quite high by themselves.

Cyberware
This was my first game with a character dedicated to cyberware, having both Extropian and Toughness. At first I restrained myself, to about 10 or so trauma points, but after I rechecked the trauma code, I just installed anything decent (aka: Reinforced Spine / Predator Reflexes), without seeing much more dysfunctions. So maybe next time I will forgo Extropian and Toughness at all.

By the way, is there any legal way to obtain powerful cyberware? Or are the Dark Hovel and the black markets the only source of them?

Also, why is installation cost constant for all implants? And why is it so expansive? It makes it a little unfair to be unable to install a 50k$ Muscle Bonding early game because you don't have the 150k$ for the procedure. And since you don't get back your previous implant when you replace it, I don't see any gameplay reason to have expansive procedures (the cost could always be lumped in the cyberware itself).

Performance
This was alright. Concerts were an excellent source of XP (especially when I purposely played the wrong songs for more difficult rolls). I only did the Athera quest line late in game, when my Performance skill was already quite high (I just didn't find the guy initially as I tough I would get a rumour about him), so it was quite easy. Randomly playing was quite lucrative, especially after I got the Perfect Pitch Ears, so maybe it should be decreased. (Or increase how quickly the audience get bored of highly skilled performers.)

Being criminal
Stealing custom mechas from ships was fun. Being attacked by infinitely reinforcing policemen was not. I guess these battles were made unbalanced by my damage reduction modification, but they should still have a limit to how much reinforcement they can get.

Lancemate skills
Something that really pester me is how only my initial lancemate got a single extra skill. The two others didn't, and the first one didn't get anything else either. And since plot lancemates and mercenaries don't have talents, it makes Camaraderie the only way to get lancemates with them (if you don't get lucky unlucky when your initial lancemate is getting a new skill).

The victory dump
Why don't you have your lancemates informations in the dump? And why only your own mecha and unassigned mechas are included in it? In the dump (following message), you can see the two Ramuh I must have salvaged just before the final battle...

[Ephafn]

%%% File saved by SaveStringList %%%
Raphael
19 year old male singer.
3:58:09, day 72
 
Reflexes            21  (Legendary)
Body                14  (Great)
Speed               20  (Legendary)
Perception          8  (Typical)
Craft               5  (Pathetic)
Ego                 16  (Amazing)
Knowledge           10  (Good)
Charm               19  (Legendary)
 
Total Exp: 121683
Free Exp: 10383
Credits: 7512614
You have 8 enemies.
You have 4 allies.
You have 38 friends.
223 people died during your adventure.
You lost 1 friend.
 
You are Very Villainous. (71%)
You are Extremely Criminal. (100%)
You are Extremely Sociable. (87%)
You are Passionate. (46%)
You are Melancholy. (37%)
You are Extremely Renowned. (100%)
You are Pragmatic. (33%)
 
Polymath
  You are a master of many skills. (can learn 3 more skills without penalty)
Idealist Blood
  Your family heritage includes some genetic engineering. (+1 to three random stats)
Ninjitsu
  Your surprise attacks are deadly. (damage bonus when attacking unseen)
Sniper
  One shot is all you ever need. (bonus to single fire damage rolls)
Extropian
  You are philosophically ready to deal with the loss of your humanity. (may have 5 extra points of cyberware with no chance of disfunction)
 
Mecha Gunnery     +13
Mecha Fighting     +15
Mecha Piloting     +15
Close Combat     +11
Dodge     +12
Vitality     +11
Athletics     +9
Concentration     +7
Initiative     +14
Electronic Warfare     +11
Spot Weakness     +13
Conversation     +11
Stealth     +10
Intimidation     +10
Performance     +13
Toughness     +12
 
  +MonoShuriken
   DC13 (Sp) RNG:T BV:10 1/1a ARMORPIERCING SWARM ARC:F90
  +Poison Antidote
  +Poison Antidote
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Nutrient Pill
  +Nutrient Pill
  +Nutrient Pill
  +Nutrient Pill
  +Nutrient Pill
  +Nutrient Pill
  +Network Phone
   Memo, Email, News, Phone, Personadex
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Antibiotic Pill
  +Sparkling Lawn Dart
   DC14 Melee Weapon (Re) ACC:+1 SPD:2 RETURN THROWN ARMORPIERCING BURN BRUTAL ARC:F90
    +Magnet Token
     Melee AddOn ACC:+1 RETURN
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Magnet Token
   Melee AddOn ACC:+1 RETURN
  +Magnet Token
   Melee AddOn ACC:+1 RETURN
  +Steel Fan
   DC18 Melee Weapon (Ch) ACC:+0 SPD:5 ARC:F90
    +Eris Token
     Melee AddOn SPD:+1
  +Deluxe Noodle Cup
  +Deluxe Noodle Cup
  +Deluxe Noodle Cup
  +Poison Antidote
  +Poison Antidote
  +Poison Antidote
  +Poison Antidote
  +Poison Antidote
  +Golden Kithara
   +4 Performance; DC5 Beam Gun (Re) RNG:3-6-9 ACC:+0 SPD:4 EP:10/325 ARC:F90; Class 3 Power Source
    >Laser Lightshow
     DC5 Beam Gun (Re) RNG:3-6-9 ACC:+0 SPD:4 EP:10/325 ARC:F90
    >Battery
     Class 3 Power Source
  +Neural Regenerator
  +Deluxe Ration
  +Deluxe Ration
  +Deluxe Noodle Cup
  +Allure Helm
   Class 2 Head Armor, +0.5 Charm, Hardened, Phone, Sealed
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  +Quick Fix Pill
  >Head
    +CommSet Earring
     Phone
    +Thracian Helmet
     Class 7 Head Armor, +1.0 Ego, Hardened, Sealed
  >Body
    +Allure SkinSuit Suit
     Class 2 Body Armor, +0.5 Charm; Class 3 Space Flight Jets, Hardened, Sealed
      >Space Flight Jets
       Class 3 Space Flight Jets
  >Right Arm
    +Data Bracelet
     Class 3 Computer; 0/6 ZeG Free; Class 1 Power Source, Memo, Email, News
      >Computer
       Class 3 Computer; 0/6 ZeG Free
        >FreezeFrame Personal
         +2 Target Speed Compensation (SF:0); 2 ZeG
        >The Bioweapon Files
         Synth Infodex; 2 ZeG
        >Wildlife Recognition Guide
         Creature Infodex; 1 ZeG
        >Robot Buyer's Guide
         Robot Infodex; 1 ZeG
      >Battery
       Class 1 Power Source
    +Allure SkinSuit Sleeve
     Class 2 Arm Armor, +0.5 Charm, Hardened, Sealed
    >Right Hand
      +Demios Blade
       DC17 Melee Weapon (Re) ACC:+1 SPD:4 HAYWIRE STONE ARC:F180
        +Thunder Token
         Melee AddOn DC:+1 HAYWIRE
        >Rocket Pistol
         DC9 Gun (Re) RNG:5-10-15 ACC:+2 SPD:4 20/20a BLAST 4 SMOKE  8mm self-propelled ARC:F180, Integral
          >Rocket Pistol Clip (Smoke)
           DC9 (Pe) 20/20a BLAST 4 SMOKE ARC:F90
  >Left Arm
    +Exorg Shield
     Defense +2; DC19 Energy Weapon (Re) RNG:2 ACC:+0 SPD:3 EP:26/325 EXTEND BRUTAL ARC:F180, Anti-Beam
      >Beam Blade
       DC19 Energy Weapon (Re) RNG:2 ACC:+0 SPD:3 EP:26/325 EXTEND BRUTAL ARC:F180
        +Jade Disc
         Class 6 Power Source
    +Allure SkinSuit Sleeve
     Class 2 Arm Armor, +0.5 Charm, Hardened, Sealed
    +Power Armband
     Class 6 Power Source
      >Battery
       Class 6 Power Source
    >Left Hand
  >Right Leg
    +Allure SkinSuit Legging
     Class 2 Leg Armor, +0.5 Charm, Hardened, Sealed
  >Left Leg
    +Allure SkinSuit Legging
     Class 2 Leg Armor, +0.5 Charm, Hardened, Sealed
  >Fashion Cybereyes
   +1 Perception, +1 Charm.
  >Cyber Heart
   +2 Body.
  >Bone Weaving
   +1 Body.
  >Perfect Pitch Ears
   Performance +3.
  >Rapid Strike Muscles
   +2 Reflexes, +2 Speed.
  >Predator Reflexes
   +4 Reflexes, +1 Body, +3 Speed, +2 Perception, +1 Ego, -3 Knowledge, -1 Charm.
  >Armored Spine
   +3 Body, -1 Speed, +3 Ego.
 
...
Start of Episode 1.
 Hewju Efltoy hired you to investigate things.
 You learned that the fleet was searching for something in Yatate Station Exterior
 You returned the Cube of Koeneke to Nonewa.
 You fought a possible invasion force.
 You decided to seek easy money in Xianzai Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 2.
 Tereun gave you a hot tip.
 Maiulp told you about a good target.
 You bought the security codes to The S.S. Pykaceusc.
 You attacked a ship belonging to Comet Metalworks.
 You captured The S.S. Pykaceusc.
 You decided to seek training in Athera Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 3.
 You helped McCabe with the rebuilding of Tohru Spinner.
 Nonewa brought you to her favorite scrapyard.
 Ua Icvo offered to become your trainer after you recovered the Peacemaker Revolver.
 You saved the Cavalier's Club from Elmvis.
 Oclyt Igtuk sent you to intercept a group of mecha from Comet Metalworks.
 Gexaus left before you could learn where the raiders were.
 You trailed Gexaus to the raider's base in Athera Station Exterior.
 You fought Ipdatex of Comet Metalworks.
 You trained with Oclyt Igtuk.
 You decided to seek a new lancemate in Tohru Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 4.
 Feher hired you to investigate things.
 You learned that your enemies were in town looking for something.
 You defeated Rococ Icwdec in her homebrew arena.
 You tracked the raiders to Tohru Spinner.
 You learned that Ipdatex was looking for the Szczerbiec Sword.
 Feher's friend Lasjang joined your lance.
 You decided to follow the action to Theles Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 5.
 You won the Gaos Spinner Charity Mecha Spectacular.
 Igsbed Juosni thanked you for helping the orphans of Gaos Spinner.
 You nearly died in the Gladiator Pit.
 You agreed to help Yxndam Rod research Ipdatex for a news story.
 You hired some reinforcements from Gecnip.
 You fooled Lupjit into revealing that the raiders are at Theles Station Exterior.
 You fought Ipdatex's lance.
 Ipdatex fought you for the glory of Comet Metalworks.
 You defeated Ipdatex.
 You decided to follow the action to Tohru Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 6.
 You captured Antle's convoy for the pirate Ixhot.
 Caohmaico opened the Ruins of Terror for you on Clund Rock.
 You were on Cayley Rock when an earthquake occurred.
 You helped Parshall open an asteroid resort.
 You were crowned champion of the Steel Arena.
 Evan offered to train you in mecha combat.
 You gave the scientist's dataslate to Hanyt Vycepy.
 You played a successful concert at the Athera Garden Theatre.
 Conena Ubroh offered to join forces with you against Ipdatex.
 You hired some reinforcements from Kejugx.
 Derrich betrayed Comet Metalworks to tell you where the raiders were.
 Ipdatex was ordered to defeat you or be fired.
 You defeated Ipdatex, who was fired by Hiquh.
 You decided to follow the action to Xianzai Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 7.
 You saved the Cavalier's Club from Elmvis.
 You were crowned the Karaoke King.
 Inyim hired you to investigate things.
 Inyim revealed that the Szczerbiec Sword was nearby.
 You obtained a treasure map from a group of pirates.
 You gave the Treasure Map to Wubciq for investigation.
 You learned that the Szczerbiec Sword can be found in Xianzai Station Exterior.
 You recovered the Szczerbiec Sword from a derelict spaceship.
 Hiquh revealed that Comet Metalworks were working on a new weapons program.
 You decided to go defend Athera Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 8.
 You were crowned champion of the Valhalla Arena.
 You helped Onigi attack the CometBurger main office.
 You met Lurubz Doysun clearing the wreckage from a battle at Green Building.
 Lurubz Doysun suggested that you ask Azpozaja for a mission.
 Azpozaja hired you to locate and stop Hiquh.
 Tihedi Amg suggested that you challenge Baane Idy for a chance to get close to Hiquh.
 You challenged Baane Idy to a duel in Athera Station Exterior.
 You accepted a sponsorship deal from MUGL Enterprises.
 You defeated Baane Idy in a duel.
 You learned that Hiquh could be found in Athera Station Exterior.
 You fought Hiquh's lance.
 You defeated Hiquh.
 You decided to follow the action to Cesena Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 9.
 Havelock in Maquise Spinner offered to become your mentor.
 You were crowned champion of the Rocket Arena.
 You won the Chitin Breastplate at Rococ Icwdec's homebrew arena.
 You hired Arqyht Loybia as a lancemate.
 You were crowned champion of the Gladiator Pit.
 You were crowned champion at the Privateer Arena.
 You agreed to help Seecmel research Hiquh for a news story.
 You defeated a group of raiders, weakening their forces.
 You tracked the raiders to Cesena Station Exterior.
 You fought Hiquh's lance.
 Hiquh came on this mission just for a chance to fight you.
 You defeated Hiquh.
 You decided to follow the action to Emerald Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 10.
 Ycnfosky hired you to locate and defeat some convoy raiders.
 Xuyfed Holuh left before you could learn where the raiders were.
 You defeated a group of raiders, weakening their forces.
 You trailed Xuyfed Holuh to the raider's base in Emerald Station Exterior.
 You fought Hiquh's lance.
 You defeated Hiquh, who seemed to be rather disappointed.
 You decided to go defend Athera Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 11.
 Chulub Zabuvk hired you to investigate things.
 You learned that Hiquh was in town to see Hesetu.
 You learned that Hesetu had been kidnapped by Comet Metalworks.
 You tracked Hiquh's henchmen to Athera Station Exterior.
 You learned that Hiquh didn't actually kidnap Hesetu.
 Instead, he sought his former mentor to ask for advice.
 Hesetu taught you a few things about mecha combat.
 You decided to protect Theles Spinner.
...
Start of Episode 12.
 Aphkep Cyar hired you to recover a lost datachip.
 You learned that Qymipj had the Datachip.
 Rogadwa revealed the location of Qymipj's Mobile Base in Theles Station Exterior.
 Qymipj was using the Datachip as bait to lure you into a trap.
 You escaped from Qymipj's mobile base right before it exploded.
 Hiquh swore revenge against you for killing his friend Qymipj.
...
Start of Episode 13.
 You found Kosaka Spinner under the control of Comet Metalworks.
 You bought the security codes to Hiquh's Command Base.
 Redfyig revealed that the armory had been captured.
 You liberated the armory from Comet Metalworks.
 You tracked Hiquh's henchmen to Kosaka Station Exterior.
 You raided Hiquh's command bunker.
 You arrived too late to prevent Hiquh's forces from launching.
 You defeated Derrich's lance.
 You defeated Ipdatex's lance.
 You defeated Aysco's lance.
 You have completely destroyed Hiquh's forces, and with them Comet Metalworks's plans for domination.
 With Comet Metalworks defeated, life slowly returns to normal. Kosaka Spinner begins the process of rebuilding from the battle.
 Humiliated by his defeat, Hiquh sinks into obscurity and is never heard from again.
CMS-04 Ramuh
[snipped due to length limit]
CMS-04 Ramuh
[snip again]
Steel Foreman Savin
[snip]
SAN-X8f Storage
[snip]

RIG-03a2 Champion
  >Head
    +Class 4 Head Armor
     Class 4 Head Armor; DC8x10 Gun (Re) RNG:16-32 ACC:+1 SPD:3 16/20a RUST LINE BRUTAL Chemical Solvent ARC:F180
      >Acid Sprayer
       DC8x10 Gun (Re) RNG:16-32 ACC:+1 SPD:3 16/20a RUST LINE BRUTAL Chemical Solvent ARC:F180
        >DC8x10 Chemical Solvent x 16
         DC8x10 (Pe) 16/20a RUST ARC:F90
    >Class 6 Sensors
    >Vulcan Interceptor
     DC5x10 Gun (Re) RNG:12-24-36 ACC:-2 SPD:2 BV:8 80/80a  INTERCEPT 45mm caseless ARC:F180
      >DC5x10 45mm caseless x 80
       DC5x10 (Pe) 80/80a ARC:F90
    >Computer
     Class 2 Computer; 20/100 ZeG Free
      >FreezeFrame
       +2 Target Speed Compensation (SF:2); 50 ZeG
      >Target Analyzer
       Mecha Infodex; 30 ZeG
  >Body
    +Class 6 Body Armor
     Class 6 Body Armor; Class 3 Arc Thrusters
      >Arc Thrusters
       Class 3 Arc Thrusters
    >Class 1 Sensors
    >Cockpit
     Polymath, Idealist Blood, Ninjitsu, Sniper, Extropian
    >Computer
     Class 6 Computer; 0/300 ZeG Free
      >Range Zero Targeting System
       +3 Targeting (SF:2); 150 ZeG
      >ZeroG Movement System
       +3 Maneuver (SF:2); 150 ZeG
    >Gyroscope
     Class 1
    >Engine
     Class 7
    >Machine Cannon
     DC4x10 Gun (Re) RNG:24-48-72 ACC:+0 SPD:2 BV:4 47/60a   45mm caseless ARC:F90
      >DC4x10 45mm caseless x 47
       DC4x10 (Pe) 47/60a ARC:F90
    >Heavy Actuators
     Class 2 Heavy Actuators
    >Arc Thrusters
     Class 3 Arc Thrusters
    >Class 6 ECM Suite
  >Right Arm
    +Class 5 Arm Armor
     Class 5 Arm Armor; DC6x10 Beam Gun (Re) RNG:32-64-96 ACC:+1 SPD:2 EP:150/541 OVERLOAD ANTIAIR ARC:F180
      >Heavy Particle Cannon
       DC6x10 Beam Gun (Re) RNG:32-64-96 ACC:+1 SPD:2 EP:150/541 OVERLOAD ANTIAIR ARC:F180
    >Right Hand
      +Gungnir
       DC23x10 Melee Weapon (Bo) RNG:8 ACC:+5 SPD:3 EXTEND ARMORPIERCING HAYWIRE ARC:F180
    >Right Arm Mount
      +Monster Slayer
       DC10x10 Beam Gun (Re) RNG:20-40-60 ACC:+1 SPD:3 EP:250/541 ARMORPIERCING ARC:F180
    >Heavy Actuators
     Class 3 Heavy Actuators
    >Battery
     Class 2 Power Source
  >Left Arm
    +Class 5 Arm Armor
     Class 5 Arm Armor; DC0x10 Missile Launcher (Pe) RNG:44-72-100 SPD:2EMPTY ARC:F180
      >ML:Incendiary Missiles 6
       DC0x10 Missile Launcher (Pe) RNG:44-72-100 SPD:2EMPTY ARC:F180
        >Incendiary Missiles
         DC5x10 (Pe) 0/6a SWARM BURN ARC:F90
    +Class 5 Beam Shield
     Defense +3
    >Left Hand
    >Left Arm Mount
    >Heavy Actuators
     Class 3 Heavy Actuators
    >Battery
     Class 2 Power Source
  >Right Leg
    +Class 5 Leg Armor
     Class 5 Leg Armor; Class 4 Arc Thrusters, Integral
      >Arc Thrusters
       Class 4 Arc Thrusters, Integral
    >Right Leg Mount
      +ML:Flash Bombs 30
       DC0x10 Missile Launcher (Pe) RNG:44-72-100 SPD:2EMPTY ARC:F90
        >Flash Bombs
         DC2x10 (Pe) 0/30a SWARM BLIND ARC:F90
    >Arc Thrusters
     Class 7 Arc Thrusters
  >Left Leg
    +Class 5 Leg Armor
     Class 5 Leg Armor; Class 4 Arc Thrusters, Integral
      >Arc Thrusters
       Class 4 Arc Thrusters, Integral
    >Left Leg Mount
      +Javelin
       DC13x10 Melee Weapon (Re) ACC:+1 SPD:2 ARMORPIERCING THROWN RETURN ARC:F90
    >Arc Thrusters
     Class 7 Arc Thrusters
 

[JohnnyDmonic]

Changing the damage curve doesn't seem like too bad an idea.  I started a brainy type character recently, and the very first thing I ended up doing was challenging an informant for the coords to the the guy with the datachip.  Me in a Starwarrior Buru Buru and 10 reflexes/5 piloting versus my very first opponent in his Zeta Warrior Ice Wind (and 20 or so variations thereof) and I basically got shot to pieces very very quickly over and over.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Looking over the damage/weapons code, I think that in addition to changing the damage curve, BV weapons (and maybe scatter) should be toned down. ATM this ability is way too cheap. My wacky idea for dealing with it: Remove BV as a stat, instead allow all weapons to optionally burst fire based on their Speed stat. You get all the shots you'd normally get in a round but the weapon takes a long time to recharge; maybe armor penetration could also be changed so that burst fire is less effective at penetrating than it is now, since currently it's no less effective than a single fire non-critical hit. I don't really know but this sounds like it could be a workable idea.

[JohnnyDmonic]

I think reducing penetration on burst fire might not be a bad idea, making it more for armor stripping.  I don't know that it needs too much more of a change, though, if overall damage is reduced.  As it stands, BV and scatter weapons are an important and viable strategy for lower-skill and non-Spot Weakness characters.

[Ephafn]

I don't really see why high BV weapons are inherently overpowered. A BV 4 DC 5 weapon is pretty much equivalent to a BV 1 DC 20 weapon in most aspect (both destructive power and cost), correct? The accuracy bonus is compensated by the need of a bigger roll to hit with all of the bullets too.

As for scatter, I always considered it as weapon disadvantage, not as a bonus. With it, you get the spread the damage over all the target surface, making it unlikely to destroy components (especially the torso or the head) quickly.

[Frumple]

The thing with scatter is that it pretty much always hits. When the biggest thing stopping you from destroying the enemy is plain ol' hitting them, that's pretty huge, especially for low(er)-stat characters. Basically, it doesn't really matter how much less damage it does (and it doesn't do less, per se, just less focused. More focused is better, of course, but...), any damage is more than you'd be doing if you missed. Since there's a number of statii inflicting scatter weapons to boot, they're bloody close to the best 'opening' weapon you've got -- for a while, at least.

S'basically the same thing with the BV. You'll have a harder time doing full damage, but any damage is more than none at all. Other weapons can be more effective, but there's a comparatively greater investment involved to get that to happen. BV and SCATTER (And it's blast and line compatriots, of course.) are just more effective at lower investment levels.

The damage they do still increases as your skills do, too, so they've got a longer 'shelf life', so to speak, of usefulness... in my opinion, of course. Non scatter/low-no BV weapons are still pretty bloody capable of shredding everything that moves... just not with a low gunnery score.

EDIT: Actually, thinking on it, there might be more going for BV weapons than I was keying on. The big thing on that BV4 DC5 vs NoBV DC20 weapon would be the DC20 one would be a perception rather than reflex weapon, which is a point in BV's favor. M'also fairly (but only fairly, I'd have to check) sure that the DC20 weapon would be a fair bit heavier than the DC5 one, which would be point the two.

I think it'd ultimately mean that the average no-BV weapon would realistically cap at DC 10, not 20, at least without involving a fairly notable defense malus (from having to invest in perception to get equivalent rolls.).

I find myself curious if anyone's crunched the damage/tohit numbers of a XP-equivalent pure gunnery vs gunnery + spot weakness character, now that I think about it. Say 20k into gunnery on one, 10k into MG and SW on the other, see how things turn out. Maybe take artmoney to the thing after a while, I guess. At higher levels when cash-training lets things get silly, it's not that big of a deal, but earlier on, that tohit bonus is probably the more desirable option... I think, anyway. Heh.

[Ephafn]

The thing with scatter is that it pretty much always hits. When the biggest thing stopping you from destroying the enemy is plain ol' hitting them, that's pretty huge, especially for low(er)-stat characters. Basically, it doesn't really matter how much less damage it does (and it doesn't do less, per se, just less focused. More focused is better, of course, but...), any damage is more than you'd be doing if you missed. Since there's a number of statii inflicting scatter weapons to boot, they're bloody close to the best 'opening' weapon you've got -- for a while, at least.

I hadn't realized that scatter worked the same as a radius 0 blast. Looking at the code (note: HasAreaEffect returns true for SCATTER weapons):

Code: [Select]

{ If this is a blast attack, dodging becomes harder. }

if HasAreaEffect( AtDesc ) and ( AtRoll <= DefRep.HiRoll ) then begin

{ For every time the defense roll beat the attack roll, }

{ the damage of the attack is reduced by half. }

if AtRoll < 1 then AtRoll := 1;

T := DefRep.HiRoll;

while T >= AtRoll do begin

T := T - MOSMeasure;

ER.FXDice := ER.FXDice div 2;

end;

if ER.FXDice < 1 then DefRep.HiRoll := AtRoll + 1

else DefRep.HiRoll := AtRoll - 1;

end;


In short, beside the fact that the damage get spread over all the target body, SCATTER weapons are strictly better than equal weapons with half the DC and +5 to ACC (MOSMeasure = 5). That's quite good for a modifier which doesn't increase the cost of weapons (as can be seen on SCATTER ammunition costing the exact same as normal ammunition).

[plllizzz]

IMO, to balance that, scatter weapon range should be near-melee range, where the probability of hitting someone is high regardless

long-to-mid range scatter weapons should be removed, leaving those with range about 2-3 tiles [still a nice distance in SF: 2]

[avestron]

I would suggest that scatter weapons suffer damage and penetration penalties at medium and long range respectively (Like a shot gun).

Problem solved.

[Ephafn]

Even simpler: Increase the cost of SCATTER weapons to be in line with an hypothetical BLAST 0 weapon (which they are in all respect).

But the price hike shouldn't go too far, as having the damage spread over all limbs is a disadvantage for attacks that would have hit the target anyway.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Regarding DC5 BV4 vs DC20 BV0: The DC5 weapon is lighter, takes up fewer slots, gets a +2 bonus to hit, has the option to be used with or without BV, and is much cheaper (at least 20%, all else being equal). That's assuming a reasonable DC/BV combo- for something like the RG-16, there's no equivalent non-BV weapon at all.

I think it might be better to penalize scatter weapons somehow rather than increase their cost. I like the idea of reducing their power at medium and long range- maybe half and quarter damage at those ranges? Or, the autohit could be toned down, although that would also affect blast and line attacks.

After playing around for a bit I think I'm going to reduce damage somewhat, and I'm definitely going to be rebalancing BV and Scatter, but not for the next release because I'm hoping to get it out today or this weekend.

[Ephafn]

After playing around for a bit I think I'm going to reduce damage somewhat, and I'm definitely going to be rebalancing BV and Scatter, but not for the next release because I'm hoping to get it out today or this weekend.

  Neet! But are you also going to increase accuracy? Like I did? Otherwise it could lead to battles being overly long.

[Joseph Hewitt]

The battles are going to be longer regardless. The damage reduction by itself should reduce one-shots and increase the utility of melee combat. I will probably increase accuracy, but I'm not yet sold on simply halving the speed penalty. Doing that and reducing damage together shifts the balance of power pretty squarely in favour of slow heavies, and I think the balance is already slightly in their favour. It also unbalances Aerofighters and other forms which rely upon their speed bonus to avoid getting hit. One idea might be to add some new situational bonuses instead- attacking from the front is the same as now, attacking a mecha from the flank gives a +x modifier and attacking from the rear gives +y.

[Frumple]

While I (quite heavily) approve of the idea of those situational bonuses, wouldn't they -- even further -- tilt the combat's favor toward tactics mode? It'd be easier to avoid taking a salvo to the back in clock mode, but it'd also conversely be harder to unload an alpha strike on their rear, which would probably be a bigger bonus. I'd imagine it'd further aggravate the (already fairly major, imo) effect of turning, too. Well, I suppose it'd take away some of the edge from the whole 'sprint with last time segment' thing as well, so maybe it'd balance out...

Still sounds awesome, regardless. Can't help but wonder what a decent turret'd mech could do with that sort of mechanic.

I'm kinda' curious what you consider a 'slow heavy', by the by. I generally start feeling it (i.e. things start tearing me into bloody chunks) when the penalties start hitting -5, myself, and speeds under (I think, at least) 80 or so, unless there's a pretty major skill/renown disparity. I've never particularly felt GH2 rewarded you for slowing down or armoring up, pers'nly. Usually quite the opposite.