Author Topic: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?  (Read 1322 times)

Offline Ephafn

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Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« on: April 21, 2010, 08:13:06 PM »
I developed the bad habit to often check the roll history (R) while playing GH2 to see how likely I was to hit the enemy or how secure I was in my impression of being untouchable. There is one aspect of these calculations that struck me as being overboard: how much an attacker is penalized when shooting at a moving enemy, especially when said enemy is a mecha going at full speed. Your starting mecha can easily reach penalties of -13 by choosing a Wraith, or even bigger with faster mechas, such as the Skull. At the end game, a flying Pixie can easily reach -17 and I'm pretty sure I've seen mechas with -19 speed targeting penalties. This is enough to make pilots with 20 Reflex and 10 Mecha Gunnery have the same hit chances than one with 1 Reflex and 1 Mecha Gunnery (assuming a minimum of 1 for the roll). But these are only the most extreme examples, it is not hard to get normal mechas to have penalty of -10 or so.

The consequence of all that is that it reduces mechas fights to simply going at full speed to not get hit, and hope that your own shots connect because the opponent is turning (putting its speed to zero) or by pure luck. As long as an enemy can shoot you, there is no compelling reason to go to normal speed, as your own penalty to hit when you go to full speed is only a paltry -3.

This actually got really ridiculous in the final battle of my last game, where I simply ran at full speed in my Pixie next to the whole enemy force, only getting hit (and destroyed) when I stupidly stopped moving. At the second try, using the same tactic but without stopping, I only got small damage from blast weapons.

I see that problem as twofold:
1 - The penalty for shooting at a moving mecha is too large, even for mechas at normal speed. This reduce the hit ratio of the game to a quite low value. Without any speed penalty, the hit rate should over around 50% as both shooting and dodging get about the same modifiers (MV/TR, weapon accuracy, cover/stealth). I am personally favorable to have hit rates higher and damage lower, but that's another discussion. However, reducing the speed penalty would go in that direction.
2 - The disadvantage from fighting while going at full speed is way to small. Loosing a -3 to accuracy is paltry compared to the additional -5 or better your opponent get. I would much prefer if running was relegated to closing the distance / running away / defense maneuvers. In short, a good strategy, but only when you are not the one doing the shooting. Increasing the accuracy penalty when being at full speed would help do that. A suggestion would be to have that penalty goes from -3 to half the penalty for those shooting at you. So, if running, the faster you go, the less accurate you would be.


Any opinion on that subject?

Offline EuchreJack

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 07:35:49 PM »
I always thought space mecha combat resembled jousting, where you charge by the enemy mecha, desperately trying to hit each other, then turn around and try again.  And again.  And again.

The -3 to hit is not insubstantial when your character is starting out.  That -3 stacks with the -4 from the usual BuruBuru starting mecha meaning most starting characters will have no increase from their skills.  Even those players starting with -2/-2 mecha will need 6 in mecha skills to see any effect.  Thus starting players tend not to go full-out.

Does your character have Stunt Driving?  That would effect the rolls.

But hitting enemy mecha (which tend to also go full-out) with -10 to hit is brutal.  I'd agree with reducing the full-out benefit to the avoiding damage roll.

This has me again thinking the best strategy is to not put any points into mecha skills, and instead use fast mecha with blast, swarm, and hyper weapons.

There is actually one other great reason not to go full-out: The enemy will usually shoot at the closest mecha.  Thus, if you cruise then your lancemate(s) will tend to get shot at instead of you.  Generally you'll want to do this when the enemy is using weapons such as I mentioned above.

Offline Forethought

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 10:52:56 PM »
Going at full speed puts you at a tactical disadvantage, since you lose much of your control over the direction your mecha is pointed (and consequently where you are capable of aiming your weapons).

Ideally, whatever bonuses a mecha gets by going full speed should be countered by having a good targeting computer.  GH2 has speed compensator programs (FreezeFrame, Oracle Target Aid, etc), and I'd imagine that their purpose is to reduce the effect in question. If going full speed is overpowered, then perhaps these programs are not common or powerful enough?

Offline Ephafn

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 08:03:39 PM »
Even those players starting with -2/-2 mecha will need 6 in mecha skills to see any effect.  Thus starting players tend not to go full-out.

Except that a skill roll of 6 can be trivially achieved by a relevant stat of 10 and a single skill point  :P . Most of my characters starts with 12 in mecha piloting/gunnery (15 reflex and 5 skill points).

As for Stunt Driving, my last character didn't had it, but my previous one did. I couldn't see it doing anything, as I kept looking at the roll history and I never saw it triggers. The code seems okay though, so I guess the issue is that I only checked when my opponent missed, so the first dodge roll was often enough.

Ideally, whatever bonuses a mecha gets by going full speed should be countered by having a good targeting computer.  GH2 has speed compensator programs (FreezeFrame, Oracle Target Aid, etc), and I'd imagine that their purpose is to reduce the effect in question. If going full speed is overpowered, then perhaps these programs are not common or powerful enough?

The best targeting computer speed compensator give you a +4 bonus. While this is a big bonus, it pales when compared to the -15 (speed 300) you can get shooting at fast moving targets. And the bonus is a constant, so you pretty much get the same bonus whether you shoot at the slowly walking Buru Buru, or the fast full speed flying Skull. Maybe if the targeting computers were changed from an absolute to a relative (percent-based) bonus it would work better, but I fear this would keep the problem intact in the early game, and make targeting softwares mandatory in the late game.


For my next game, I will probably try to halve the speed bonus, and halve the damages to compensate. Mainly to see how much it impacts the game.
Fun fact: the damage rolled by RollDamage actually has an expected value of 10% less than shown for SF:0 weapons, and 80% bigger than shown for SF:1 and SF:2 weapons. The average damage dealt by a DC 2x10 particle Cannon is 36, not 20.

Edit: targeting computer -> speed compensator
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 09:35:13 AM by Ephafn »

Offline Frumple

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 10:32:23 PM »
*coughs* Best targeting software is +5 on the chimie or kraken, on top of a max +4 speedcomp program, which I guess is what you were actually meaning? A crown comp and whatever that next-class down and half-ton (Full ton? Forget...) lighter one is gets you both for lessin' 3 tons. +9 is stacking pretty well up against -15, especially when the skill/stat levels you're probably going to have at that point gets added in, though mecha weight penalty shaves some of that off, of course.

Anyway, as to the general discussion, I dunno if I could add anything. GH2's combat system isn't something I'd like to see anything making it easier to get hit being added in to, particularly; generally, if you get hit, you die or come bloody close to it. Yeah, I'd probably like damage -- or at least the crazed lethality of most shots that land -- dropping (Want freaking tank, darnit. Boloooo~), but that's sorta' against the grain of GH's theme; more in line with BTech than Gundam, to use an example... I think, anyway.

There is a tactical disadvantage to going full speed, but it's mostly been having actually stop and turn sooner more than anything else -- keeping weapons in the arms or head(s) generally gives you plenty of firing arc. Naturally, the few turretable mecha have even less of a problem with that -- and are absolutely vicious when upgunned a bit. Skull trumping bargol? Ohyes.

There's some other things that haven't been mentioned yet, I guess, such as stopping to firing (+3 to the roll, innit?) or firing stealth'd (+5 or 10) -- those added to the software would completely cancel that -15 with change left over. Tactics mode makes stopping, sniping a few shots off, then going ahead full speed pretty trivial, too, though that kinda' exaggerates the effectiveness for the PC (Though naturally, you're probably massively outnumbered, so you need all the help you can get.)...

Ultimately though, I dun really have an opinion, I guess. The speed thing's probably more thematic than lessened damage/higher hitrate. Open-ended damage rolls really disagree with being hit, especially on top of the overkill stuff (*grumbles vaguely about even more ablative storage pods*), which is about all I can throw on the discussion table at the mo'. Really sleepy, and this already a little too rambley.
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Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 06:58:05 AM »
Anyway, as to the general discussion, I dunno if I could add anything. GH2's combat system isn't something I'd like to see anything making it easier to get hit being added in to, particularly; generally, if you get hit, you die or come bloody close to it. Yeah, I'd probably like damage -- or at least the crazed lethality of most shots that land -- dropping (Want freaking tank, darnit. Boloooo~), but that's sorta' against the grain of GH's theme; more in line with BTech than Gundam, to use an example... I think, anyway.


I don't know if you've been reading my posts at the GH blog about watching the original Mobile Suit Gundam series, but one of the things I'm really noticing is how much BattleTech was influenced by Gundam. Anyhow, on to a strange idea that occurred to me during the battle against the MSM-03 Gogg...

(in Gundam) There are two things going on with regard to shooting at and damaging a mecha: first you have to hit it, and then you have to penetrate its armor. A weapon which is good at one is not necessarily good at the other. To shoot a speedy mecha you need to use a speedy (read: small) weapon. To penetrate the armor of a big mecha or a mobile armor you need to use a heavy weapon. It seems to be a case of like vs like- speed is strongest against speed, strength is strongest against strength.

This brings me to another point- when a mecha has more than one weapon, it's not usually the case that one weapon is better than the others. Instead, the weapons have different uses... except the hyper hammer, which has the lowest utility to coolness ratio of any weapon ever.

I had more to say, but Sean didn't go to sleep easily tonight and now it's 11:00, so I'll say it tomorrow.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 05:23:00 AM »
Back. Now, a radical idea for how to make the game more amenable to both speedsters and tanks. I'll say up front that this is not anything which is likely to actually get implemented, because it would completely unbalance the combat system and probably require massive rewrites. Still, I think it's an interesting idea for how things could work, and maybe something from this could make it into the game.

What about if there were some way other than MV and TR to see how hard it is to hit a mecha? I was thinking about a new stat, which in my notes has been termed "Thwackability". The lower your Thwackability the harder it is to hit you. This attribute could be calculated based on the mecha's size class, the number of modules, and the ratio of maximum speed to mass. The speed penalty for moving would be reduced to compensate.

Note that I said "the lower your THW, the harder to hit", not "the higher, the easier". This is because THW can only result in a to-hit penalty, never a bonus. Now, there are several different ways this could be handled. The THW scores of attacker and defender could be compared, with a penalty going to the attacker (this would result in more of a Macross-style system). The THW score can be compared to the weapon's DC, with an excessive DC getting a penalty (thereby giving the right-weapon-for-the-right-job system). These two systems could even be combined (giving a penalty if you're less agile than your opponent, which may be offset by using a lighter weapon). The targeting UI could be updated to show your percent chance of hitting and your chance of damaging an opponent.

Note that THW could potentially replace MV and/or TR entirely. Also, DC could be replaced by a sliding scale of Power/Agility... more on this in a moment.

This covers how to get the speed vs speed part of the equation, but what about strength vs strength? We could also radically change the way armor works. Instead of stopping X points of damage, what if armor worked more like a saving throw? You need a weapon with high enough power or you won't cause any damage at all (other than staged penetration, which would still degrade armor over time). A weapon with more than enough penetrating power would be overkill- there'd be no benefit to using such a weapon. There could still be different grades of damage- depending on the penetration roll, it might do full, half, or quarter damage.

So how do we roll damage if DC is eliminated? All weapons of a given scale could do basically the same damage. Maybe the skill roll or certain attributes would affect this. The basic premise is that anything which penetrates your armor is going to mess you up.

At the moment, mecha get an armor rating which is usually equal to the module size. Instead, mecha could be given an armor rating of thin, medium, or heavy. Increasing the armor rating will increase weight by more than a linear factor- getting heavy armor will greatly increase Thwackability. The thickness of armor determines the penetration roll. So, it can be just as hard to damage a very small heavily armored mecha as a great big heavily armored one, but the small one still can't take as much damage.

This sounds like it should be workable. In fact, the concept is similar to that used by the Silhouette RPG system (Heavy Gear, etc). Unfortunately, it's a complicated system, and what I'd really like right now is to simplify instead. Even though the intent of this system is to provide more choices, there's no way of telling if there will be a degenerate best choice. The more complex a system is the more likely it is to have such a case, in fact... there's a name for this but I can't remember it.

Thoughts?

Offline Ephafn

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 04:01:05 PM »
What about if there were some way other than MV and TR to see how hard it is to hit a mecha? I was thinking about a new stat, which in my notes has been termed "Thwackability". The lower your Thwackability the harder it is to hit you. This attribute could be calculated based on the mecha's size class, the number of modules, and the ratio of maximum speed to mass. The speed penalty for moving would be reduced to compensate.

Note that I said "the lower your THW, the harder to hit", not "the higher, the easier". This is because THW can only result in a to-hit penalty, never a bonus. Now, there are several different ways this could be handled. The THW scores of attacker and defender could be compared, with a penalty going to the attacker (this would result in more of a Macross-style system). The THW score can be compared to the weapon's DC, with an excessive DC getting a penalty (thereby giving the right-weapon-for-the-right-job system). These two systems could even be combined (giving a penalty if you're less agile than your opponent, which may be offset by using a lighter weapon). The targeting UI could be updated to show your percent chance of hitting and your chance of damaging an opponent.

Note that THW could potentially replace MV and/or TR entirely. Also, DC could be replaced by a sliding scale of Power/Agility... more on this in a moment.

All that could work, but I would be strongly in favor of simply using the mecha Class as part of the accuracy calculations. My own suggestion would be:
  • (Target Class - 5) accuracy modifier
  • Damage is multiplied by (5 / Target Class)
  • Armor class limits are removed (so a Class 3 mecha could get Class 6 armor)
  • Weapons are rebalanced to give low DC weapons high ACC, and high DC weapons low ACC
These 4 changes would give add a clear distinction between low class (speedsters) and high class (tanks) mechas, without too
much disruptions to the rest of the game.

This covers how to get the speed vs speed part of the equation, but what about strength vs strength? We could also radically change the way armor works. Instead of stopping X points of damage, what if armor worked more like a saving throw? You need a weapon with high enough power or you won't cause any damage at all (other than staged penetration, which would still degrade armor over time). A weapon with more than enough penetrating power would be overkill- there'd be no benefit to using such a weapon. There could still be different grades of damage- depending on the penetration roll, it might do full, half, or quarter damage.

So how do we roll damage if DC is eliminated? All weapons of a given scale could do basically the same damage. Maybe the skill roll or certain attributes would affect this. The basic premise is that anything which penetrates your armor is going to mess you up.

I like the saving throw system. In my own roguelike, I had armor works by reducing damage by a random number between 0 and the nominal armor value. It actually worked quite well in favoring high damage attacks against heavily armored foes. (I didn't have armor degradation though.) I'd say such a system could works quite well in GH2, by allowing the nominal armor value to be modified by ARMORPIERCING, Spot Weakness and MOS. (For example, against an AP weapon, only one fourth of the armor value would be used.)

That was my thoughts.

Offline Phil Munoz

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 07:39:36 PM »
Somehow, I feel that the OP's complaint is not really addressed by the discussion.

I would suggest that the accuracy penalty should scale with the movement velocity of the attacker.  Targetting systems should be able to compensate for this, however, and some weapons could be exempt  or have reduced penalty from the attacker's movement speed (guided missiles?).

Also, I think that making radical changes to the game's to-hit and damage system is uncalled for.  I would suggest that armor penetration and such should be implemented once the game's Armor system is revised (following the discussion about having defined armor material which would determine how many armor points and other stats a specific material should have).

I'm also in favor of simply having the Mecha's size class factor in the accuracy roll.

Offline Forethought

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 03:37:49 AM »
The proposed system is different, what with ThW being important for to hit rolls and armor being less of a damage resistance and more of a damage avoidance. Is DP/HP even used?

I suppose it comes down to a question of the purpose of the combat mechanics. Are they attempting to simulate realistic combat (albeit with the exception that giant robots are viable combat vehicles)? Are they attempting to simulate combat as seen in cartoons? Are they just there to add extra drama to the scenes the plot generator makes?

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 04:35:51 AM »
I suppose it comes down to a question of the purpose of the combat mechanics. Are they attempting to simulate realistic combat (albeit with the exception that giant robots are viable combat vehicles)? Are they attempting to simulate combat as seen in cartoons? Are they just there to add extra drama to the scenes the plot generator makes?


All of the above. Attempting to simulate realistic combat with giant robots is a boondoggle- things have to be fudged to make giant robots viable, and people aren't likely to agree on which fudge is the most realistic. It's hardly separate from simulating combat as seen in cartoons because presumably the creators of many of those cartoons thought that they were depicting realistic combat with giant robots. Furthermore, cartoons are the natural habitat of the giant robot, so trying to separate cartoons from the conventions of the genre is impossible. The third point, adding drama, is not even up for negotiation. The combat has to be fun and dramatic because it's a game.

Edit- Because upon rereading what I wrote above, it seems pointlessly contrarian. Let's say that GearHead's combat system is mostly meant as a simulation of certain Real Robots cartoons. It's meant to stick closer to the realistic rather than super side of things. The important thing is to keep the game fun.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 04:56:09 AM by Joseph Hewitt »

Offline Forethought

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I suppose it comes down to a question of the purpose of the combat mechanics. Are they attempting to simulate realistic combat (albeit with the exception that giant robots are viable combat vehicles)? Are they attempting to simulate combat as seen in cartoons? Are they just there to add extra drama to the scenes the plot generator makes?


All of the above. Attempting to simulate realistic combat with giant robots is a boondoggle- things have to be fudged to make giant robots viable, and people aren't likely to agree on which fudge is the most realistic. It's hardly separate from simulating combat as seen in cartoons because presumably the creators of many of those cartoons thought that they were depicting realistic combat with giant robots. Furthermore, cartoons are the natural habitat of the giant robot, so trying to separate cartoons from the conventions of the genre is impossible. The third point, adding drama, is not even up for negotiation. The combat has to be fun and dramatic because it's a game.

Edit- Because upon rereading what I wrote above, it seems pointlessly contrarian. Let's say that GearHead's combat system is mostly meant as a simulation of certain Real Robots cartoons. It's meant to stick closer to the realistic rather than super side of things. The important thing is to keep the game fun.


With those goals in mind, are the proposed changes a shift in the right direction?

IMO the ThW changes are a shift away from the realistic, and the penetration/DC changes are going to be more or less the same (except possibly for overkill weapons).

I'm not saying that the combat mechanics should not exhibit a principle of mecha homeopathy- ample evidence has been posted in this thread in support of of the idea. I am merely questioning whether this direct approach is the right one.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Quote
I'm not saying that the combat mechanics should not exhibit a principle of mecha homeopathy- ample evidence has been posted in this thread in support of of the idea. I am merely questioning whether this direct approach is the right one.

I'm not committed to these ideas in any way, I just thought they were interesting. Why exactly do you think the ThW idea would make things less realistic?

Offline IronJelly

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Re: Is it me, or going full speed is overpowered?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 02:07:59 PM »
Armor piercing could be handled with an additional roll.

Ie: normally, your thick armor absorbs 1d8+4 damage (4 to 12 of it.  numbers were pulled from the air, I don't know the exact numbers you use at all).  An AP weapon could be simulated by rolling this twice and taking the lower number.  This means the potential absorption is unchanged, but it's a lot harder to absorb higher amounts.

I wrote a script for an RPG once that did this.  Every roll in the game went into a rolling function which took the character's current karma into it, and rolled X times, and took the highest or lowest values depending if Karma was positive or negative.  Each time it fudged the roll, it pulled your karma a point in the opposite direction (toward neutral).  The result was interesting in that the weight of the roll changed without affecting the possible outcomes.  Except for the people who really worked for it, it was never more than 3 rolls, and the dice were in the hundreds of sides for various things, so it wasn't really overpowering the players too much to have good Karma, but it was certainly noticeable that with good karma, things would go your way.

I'm not sure in this context if re-rolling things is a good alternative to number changes, but it's something to consider.