Seeking advice in transitioning from early to mid game

[EuchreJack]

I know lots about playing the first 3 episodes with the starting mecha.  But I'm now in episode 5 with money to burn.  I do not have mecha engineering, and am thinking of trying to go without mecha engineering.  But I have an empty talent slot for polymath, so I can use that to learn it.

Could probably gather around 500,000 to 1,000,000 credits.  I do not have an exact amount because most of my assets are tied up in salvaged mecha.

I have JohnnyDomnic's Mecha added to the default, and am using a Shojo variant, with my lancemate in an Assault Jaeger Ice Wind.

Also, it seems most shopkeepers only have low-grade mecha.  Do I need to find shopkeepers who bend the law, or is there something I can do to "level up" the shopkeepers?

[Joseph Hewitt]

It's possible to level up a shop by buying things there, but for the time being your best bet is to find richer shopping areas. Try Emerald Spinner or Xianzai Spinner for upscale shops; the Valhalla Arena in Gaos Spinner also usually has better than average mecha.

Check your email- you may be eligible to join the VIP room at the Cavalier's Club soon. If so, you can also get another lancemate slot.

[JohnnyDmonic]

You've basically got two choices for transitioning away from the early mecha, Vadel, or Zerosaiko.  The Largo is also reasonable if you think you'd be likely to make use of the options it gives you, and the Ramuh is a good base frame in the same size class at a reasonable cost.  Without using Mecha Engineering I might recommend either the Ramuh, for it's full set of mounting points, or the Custom Vadel available from Duellist Association shops occasionally. (For it's high performance engine).  By the time you can afford a Pixie it's probably worth investing your money in a Savin.  If you're using my most recent Mecha pack the AO-1 Beta is a decent base frame but suffers from a head mounted cockpit and while the head and torso have good mass modifiers the limbs were kind of designed to be replaced.  The good thing with the Beta is you can probably get a few free, they show up semi-regularly and a headshot takes it home with you.  One thing to note, there's two versions of the Beta Rifle, both are probably superior to a Shaka Cannon despite being DC8, but the second variant is Armorpiercing as well. (plus extended range due to the gunaddon) (In retrospect, The Shojo Shaka is AP as well if you were using a Beautiful Buru Shojo)

Also if you're using my mecha pack if you spot a Buru Buru that is particularly difficult to take down, that might be a Boost Unit Buru Buru, in which case steal it's armor.  Class 5, Overcharger 2 integral Arcjet 2 integral HeavyActuator 2 integral, should be 2.5 tons a location.  The weight adds up, but the heavy actuators pretty much offset it.

On any of those you'll want to rip out anything you don't need/wont use like batteries in some cases, etc.  Even without Mecha Engineering (so it's destroyed? It gets the weight down at least).

Also, if you can get a new lancemate, you might be able to find a mecha engineer if you look around a lot, or save-scum the 'need to a find a new lancemate' core story reward.

Some final, slightly cheaper options:

Pheonix:  For some reason I've just never been happy with them.  But they're honestly a pretty good base frame with good armor.  Replace the firepower and you're pretty good to go, with the caveat that without mecha engineering you may want to pick a mech that comes with at least some sort of computer and ECM to start with.

Daum:  Avoid it.  It "feels" like a good upgrade for it's relatively low price, but honestly you can get about the same stats/armor/firepower twiddling with cheaper mecha, and it's very very hard even with engineering to push much more out of the Daum itself.  The Secutor ends up in about the same position.

Kitted out with the best weapons and armor you can find most of the above can hold their ground into the late game.

Late game, I tend to hand out Bargol's and Roc's that get captured or given to me to lancemates, and stick to a Savin, although Bargol are free with a headshot, so they might make a good starter end-game mech.  (My current game I'm using the AO Alpha, actually.  And boy howdy do I get taken out with headshots a lot. =/  But I only have piloting 10 currently and I'm at the last stage of the core story, so maybe I should have stopped and worked on that some more.)

[JohnnyDmonic]

Oh, and you may want to remove some of the higher end mecha I designed.  One of the Medved has really horrible stats, but if it's Bertha Breaker cannon hits it's pretty much game over and it doesn't have any particular weak points.  The Kyubi dies pretty quickly to hyper weapons, but I've seen it's Ninebreaker main gun chew up 2 of my lancemates in a single shot when piloted by a named opponent.  The Gibraltar was just kind of excessive, really.  I like having them in there, but your mileage may vary.

[Joseph Hewitt]

The thing to remember about the Phoenix is that unlike the Vadel, Zerosaiko, and Ramuh it's not really a general purpose model- it's a long range shooty model. If your character is set up for ranged combat (especially with Spot Weakness) it may be a better choice than any of those three.

The Vadel really needs good Speed/Initiative scores to be used effectively, otherwise you'll be shooting forward four or five squares per attack. Add in Stunt Driving and it becomes a really powerful close range mecha.

The Zerosaiko is good if your character is skilled at personal combat, effectively becoming a +0/+0 mecha. It also allows you to use Acrobatics as an extra defense roll, though with a significant penalty.

If we're just talking about stock mecha, the Ramuh has overload/haywire going for it. If you've got more than one Ramuh in your party then the status effects really start to pile up.

It might also be worth looking at the Largo. At -3/-3 its standard layout may seem a bit weak, but it comes with a reflex system like the Zerosaiko and is capable of transforming into a zoanoid. It's also way more heavily armed than anything else on this list. A little engineering work can get it to base stats of -2/-2 or -1/-1. I've used a Largo all the way to the endgame sometimes; actually, I've used all of these except the Phoenix and the Ramuh to the end.

By the time you can afford a Pixie it's probably worth investing your money in a Savin.

Again, I would say this depends on your character build and preferred tactics. If your mecha for the mid-to-late game was the Vadel then you'll probably do better in the end with a Pixie.

[JohnnyDmonic]

Hmm.  Well, I have to say that some of it may be that invariably I completely change out the mechs armor and weapons loadout.  So what it's original niche was isn't always going to shine through for me.  And from the same angle, it just seems to reach a point for me where I need the extra carrying capacity/soaking ability of a class 7 over a class 5.  And for much the same reason the class 4 pheonix ends up weighted down earlier than I would prefer.  Some of that may come down to the weapons I choose and whatnot, however.  Been running solo on my latest run through, focusing on Big Guns, and boy-howdy, even after borrowing some of the best modified versions of big guns it's hard to pack enough firepower to chew through the incoming hordes while they're still at range.

Speaking of which, I'm thinking it might be worth separating out Mecha combat into Ranged/Big Guns again.  In personal scale there's also the issue of weight vs body to limit the firepower you carry around, and ammo weight and all that, with mecha scale the weight issues can be overcome to an extent leaving big guns to currently be 'balanced' by slow speed/excessive weight making them unusable in the early game/lack of options.  Even with the limited skill slots I think having them as two separate skills added a lot in terms of individualizing a character.

[EuchreJack]

Both myself and my first lancemate are skilled in mecha combat far more than personal combat.  Speed is ten for us both, but around 6 initiative.  Mecha gunnery 7, Mecha piloting 5.

I like the weapons I currently have, as I have this DC7 immolation cannon that does HYPER BURN damage, Inferno missiles, and the Thebes Persuader (a DC10 melee weapon with ARMORPIERCING, BRUTAL, and SCATTER) from JohnnyDmonic's mod.  Also would like to use the Mecha Assault Rifle I just got off a custom mecha.  I was so thrilled to get a custom mecha as an episode reward...till I learned it was a ripper (they're made of paper).  I think the Ramuh would be the best best for me.

It is nice to hear that Mecha Engineering is optional.  My basic character only had one slot left for new skills, and did not start with Initiative.  It was an easy decision.  I am seriously considering robotics, as my character and my first lancemate are both doctors with limited abilities in personal combat.  My first lancemate having 5 body does not help, and his 16 charisma is of little comfort to me.

Speaking of robotics, just how expendable are lancemates in the mid to late game?  Would I benefit by having a ready supply of robotic lancemates, or are there enough mercenaries in the world for the sentient robotic lancemates to not be a real benefit.  Even without this being a benefit, I may still pick up robotics, as the main benefit of robotic non-sentient lancemates seems to be the unlimited number of them that a player can have.  This greatly helps personal combat.

[JohnnyDmonic]

Yeah, Ripper really needs to be able to make use of it's status effects, and possibly the smoke launcher and get in close on someone to really accomplish much, and that's just not a real effective strategy in mass combat generally.  That does bring to mind one thing, though.  Even later in the game it's pretty likely to get some kind of so-so mecha as rewards, I know I finished a few arenas and got rewarded things like Daum and such.  Only once or twice did I ever get even a Vadel which at least feels like a real reward.  Admittedly the custom weapons are the real prize either way, generally, but still it's something I've been noticing.  Some of that may come down to what mecha certain factions have access to, perhaps.

(Side note, Ripper is an incredibly maneuverable mech, can't carry much at class 2, but it's a reasonably safe choice for a lancemate to plink away inflicting status effects from)

Also, I miss the truly unique mecha from GH1.  Perhaps something like the Theme files, but with full mecha at each 'price point'?  (so far as I've really been able to tell tends to go 100-200k, 200-350k, 350-500k, 1 million, 2-2.5 mill, ZOMGTHATSEXPENSIVE)  So sometimes when you discover a prototype mecha it's a Theme variant, and sometimes it's an actual unique mecha.

[Kaeoschassis]

I'm still at the point of experimenting and stumbling occasionaly, but as soon as I can realisticaly afford one without leaving myself penniless I tend to go for a Vadel. The Zerosaiko doesn't interest me as much somehow, I dunno why, but since my characters tend to emphasise the mecha skills I guess the Vadel's the better option anyway. Man, you're right about speed+initiative though. I am NOT neglecting those again. I'm such a newbie~ >.<'

To be honest, I'm more interested in the differences between mid and late game mechs. In my most recent (and best so far) playthrough, I took a Luna-II as my first upgrade, from salvage, then went straight to a Vadel. Then when I could finally afford it I bagged me a RIG-03 Reaper Savin. It's a wonderful, wonderful mek, no doubt, and I've hardly had any repair bills since I grabbed it, but I have to ask. WHY is it so good? If I'm honest, the low MV/TR scores really put me off it at first. Even with a decent computer as standard, it's -3/-3 off the shelf, and stripping some of the less useful weapons doesn't do anything to help. Yet it's still far, far superior to the Vadel, and that much is obvious having piloted it. So yeah, sorry if it's a stupid question, but what makes it so much better, and worth the 3mil price tag?

[Joseph Hewitt]

The Savin's main advantages are durability and carrying capacity. It's bigger and tougher than the Vadel, though obviously much slower.

[Kaeoschassis]

Yeah, I see what you mean. I have a much harder time throwing big guns on a Vadel... But does the Savin really NEED that many machineguns? I guess this comes back to having a higher initiative letting me fire more quickly.

Which is realisticaly better though? A high initiative and chain firing a bunch of huge guns, or having only a few weapons, but being much more agile? Or is it pretty much balanced either way?

Also is it me, or were the signiature weapons on the Savin series somewhat loosely inspired by the main units of MS: Gundam Wing? Just a random thought...

[EuchreJack]

(Side note, Ripper is an incredibly maneuverable mech, can't carry much at class 2, but it's a reasonably safe choice for a lancemate to plink away inflicting status effects from)

I agree the Ripper is quite hard to hit, but if one shot lands, it's over.  Therefore, it is perfect for underdeveloped lancemates!

[JohnnyDmonic]

A big part of that 3 million is dealer mark up, the actual point value on most savin's is "only" around 2.2-2.5 mil.  Of that, something like 3/4ths of a million is external armor.  External armor is actually pretty expensive. (You don't even want to imagine Hardened external armor.  I made a class 8 zoanoid named the Gorgon with Hardened head and body armor at class 9, came out to almost 1 million PV per piece.  I also made a class 5 with full hardened external armor that topped 2.5 mill PV total despite being under-gunned and having so-so MV/TR.  IIRC each piece of hardened class 5 armor was 400-500k)  Energy weapons are also relatively expensive for their weight/DC more so with mass reduction, and mass reduction increased projectile weapon costs pretty quickly, of which almost all the Savin's weapons have decent mass reduction.  The price reduction for negative MV/TR is helpful, but it's not a huge cut.  As for why Savin's are so effective, it's like the man said, they're tough and they can carry a pretty hefty loadout without going further down in MV/TR.

As for optimizing a Savin:
dropped original VC-5, combat lasers, batteries, armor, ECM, comp
added ECM and legs from a Roc, Arms from a Chimentero, Sensor 9 from a Chimentero, Chimentero Thrustor Pods with computers borrowed from 2 Chimentero plus software from one of them and the storage armor,  Chimentero Hoverjet 9's replaced with Pheonix Flight 9's pending finding arcjet 9's or 10's in a shop (one space slot in each thruster pod if 10's available)  ,  external armor from an Pixie losing some class levels but an overall gain in armor vs. weight with the exception of BodyArmor from an Ovaknight, a HeavyActuator 7 from a Hariseng (although I have no idea how to actually find one in game), a storebought Overcharger 5, a Heavyactuator 4 from something or another in the chest armor and a pair of heavyac 1's in the arms,
And for armament, a pair of nukes from a gigas to soften them up, SWM-2's replaced with SWM-5's from a Kraken, a VC-5 from a Vadel, and for mop up the Savin version of the RG-16, a Breaker Cannon, and a Nova Scythe because at that point, why go small?

Starting stats are:
4.5 mill point value
MR/TR/SE: -4/-2/+5
Max speed: 223

Emptying the clip on all the missiles should drop it back down to -2/0 or fairly close.  In all honesty, I'd drop the Nova Scythe, because, really, melee range?  And having both the RG-16 and the Breaker Cannon may be unnecessary (and dangerous on the same arm, but I prefer to avoid the shield arm).   Still, some fights you're going to have a lot of mop-up to do.  For actual day-to-day use I'd probably drop the nukes in favor of some backup weapons, either the original heavy phase cannons from the chimentero or maybe some RG-8's or some such.  If dropping the nukes I might also switch the Kraken SWM-5s for the Corriach version with Haywire (although a slightly smaller magazine) to keep the natives from getting restless.  Or organized, at least.  On the same score, switching the nukes for a Bargol's Nightfall missiles would be a definite PV savings, I believe a weight saving, and give you an extra layer of status effects to hand out.

There's still 1 space per thruster pod open, and the storage armor is empty, as well.

Mech is tagged for Red Mask Raiders in addition to the usual because I see no point to giving myself a toy that can't kill me.  I'm probably going to leave this in my next mech pack, although separate from the regular Savins since it has modified limbs.

Code: [Select]

Battroid 7
Name <Savin>
Desig <RIG-01S Supreme>
SDL_Sprite <btr_savin.png>
SDL_Portrait <item_savin.png>
Desc <Maquise Spinner's premier mecha suit. The Supreme Savin is a highly optimized fighting machine.>
TYPE <GROUND SPACE INSIDE>
FACTIONS <SILKN FEDER COMET MAQUI FCOMS RISHI REDMA>

Sub

Storage
Armor 6
Name <Right Thruster>
mass -3
sub
Flight 9

Mount
Name <Right Thruster Mount>
inv
MLauncher 2
sub
STC NUKE-20
end
end

Computer 5
mass -6
sub
Software 5
name <C233 Advanced Targeting>
S_TRBoost
S_BoostScale 2
end
end
inv
StorageArmor 3
Mass -5
sub

end
end

Storage
Armor 6
Name <Left Thruster>
mass -3
sub
Flight 9

Mount
Name <Left Thruster Mount>
inv
MLauncher 2
sub
STC NUKE-20
end
end

Computer 5
mass -6
sub
Software 3
name <C232 Advanced Reflex Control>
S_MVBoost
S_BoostScale 2

Software 4
name <K-Trak Target Aid>
S_SpeedComp
S_BoostScale 2
end
end
inv
StorageArmor 3
Mass -5
sub

end
end

Head
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Size 5
Mass -5
sub
Sensor 9
mass -3

STC VC-5
mass -11

end
inv
HeadArmor 5
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ArcJet 4
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end
end

Torso
Armor 7
Mass -7
sub
Sensor 1

CPit
Armor 2
Mass -1


Gyro
Armor 2
Mass -1

Engine 7
Armor 2
Mass -1

ECM 6
mass -1

Overcharger 5

HeavyActuator 7
Mass -5
end
inv
BodyArmor 8
Mass -12
Sub
HeavyActuator 4
mass -2
End
end

Arm
Name <Right Arm>
Size 5
Armor 7
Mass -7
sub
Hand
Name <Right Hand>
inv
Gun 10
Name <Breaker Cannon>
Range 7
caliber <60cm Nuclear>
mass -6
Magazine 12
sub
Ammo 10
Type <ARMORPIERCING HYPER>
caliber <60cm Nuclear>
end
end

Mount
Name <Right Arm Mount>
inv
STC RG-16
mass -9
end

ArcJet 3

Heavyactuator 1
end
inv
ArmArmor 5
mass -8
sub
ArcJet 3
Integral
end
end

Arm
Name <Left Arm>
Size 5
Armor 7
Mass -7
sub
Hand
Name <Left Hand>

Mount
Name <Left Arm Mount>
inv
EMelee 20
Name <Nova Scythe>
Speed 3
UsesReflexes
Acc 2
Type <ARMORPIERCING EXTEND>
Mass 6
end

ArcJet 3

Heavyactuator 1
end
inv
ArmArmor 5
mass -8
sub
ArcJet 3
Integral
end

Shield 5
DefBonus 1
Mass -5
end

Leg
Name <Right Leg>
Armor 7
Mass -9
sub
Mount
Name <Right Leg Mount>
inv
MLauncher 24
mass -1
sub
STC SWM-5
magazine 48
type <SWARM ARMORPIERCING>
end
end

ArcJet 7
end
inv
LegArmor 5
mass -8
sub
ArcJet 4
Integral
end
end

Leg
Name <Left Leg>
Armor 7
Mass -9
sub
Mount
Name <Left Leg Mount>
inv
MLauncher 24
mass -1
sub
STC SWM-5
magazine 48
type <SWARM ARMORPIERCING>
end
end

ArcJet 7
end
inv
LegArmor 5
mass -8
sub
ArcJet 4
Integral
end
end
end


[Kaeoschassis]

Ach, this is actualy really helpful, mainly because I'm still getting used to which meks are worth salvaging, and for what. Thanks a lot~

I'm seeing what you mean about armour. Still, I guess not getting hit at all is pretty much impossible, so it's worth the costs if it keeps you from needing yet another new spine. <.<

Looking over the mods you suggested I can see how the Savin is more useful, since you can throw so much onto it and still be as agile as a Buruburu when fully loaded. I honestly didn't expect you'd be able to add anywhere near so much. The mention of nukes kinda made me a little concerned though. I've never had a nuke, but I used those missles from the Corraich... what're they, Dessicators? Not sure without checking. Yeah, those things are EXPENSIVE to reload. I guess when you're taking high-rep missions you still manage to turn a profit, but it makes things kinda dicey and you can't really afford to lose.

As for the Nova scythe, I'm rather partial to melee myself. Partly just for style purposes, partly because of the lack of ammo costs. I'd rather mount a melee weapon I can use as a close-range primary AND a backup if my ammo weapons run out, but that's just me.

The other thing I should mention is that personaly I enjoy the Mecha Engineering side of the game. Or, if I don't take M.E., I enjoy the NOT being able to mod my mech. It adds an extra little thrill when I have to salvage parts as I find them, and make do with what I have. Having said that, there's something very, very fun about giving your foes bigger toys. I might just grab your mech pack just so I have bigger things to shoot. xD

Again though, thanks for the pointers. I'm gonna copy this down and keep a look out for what you mentioned. ^^

[JohnnyDmonic]

At 8 tons a piece for the nukes, and given their huge reload cost you can save at least a point of MV/TR dropping those, or drop all missiles (the SWM-5's are 6 tons fully loaded) and fit another pair of pretty decent guns on that mech. (The vadel's VC-5s are a personal favorite of mine for close range mop up at only 2.5 tons for a lot of firepower, the Chimentero Heavy Phase cannons are also good for an energy weapon equivalent.  Good weight reduction MAC-4's aren't bad for twice the range of VC-5s, or for range plus even heftier damage at higher weight RG-8's.  The Roc has a good reduced weight RG-8 on it.)  With that said, there's little to compare with the instantaneous firepower of missiles (especially if you set missile burst value to max from the combat menu), if you can afford to keep up with reloads.

And yeah, even if you can dodge most everything, things like LINE, BLAST, or SCATTER weapons will still almost always hit you.  Luckily they split the damage randomly over the mech, but that still means you'll be happy to have at least some armor to soak up those kinds of hits.

For a close range optimized Savin without going through quite so many hoops:

Starting with the Gladius variant of the Savin available occasionally from high value Pro Duellist shops (for it's Highperformance engine +1/+1), and with relatively few internal changes (switched to chimentero sensor, Roc ECM, switched VC-5 for vadel VC-5, dropped battery from head and MAC-4 from chest) changed out the armor basically as above, no bothering with limbs other than the wings from a Gigas for good, low weight, space to put some overchargers in.  Optionally, I believe one of the Blades of Crihna areofighters or hoverfighters has some wing armor.

For weapons, the Nova Scythe, a Mecha Blunderbuss (replace with any better Scatter weapon you get from theme mecha or some such, or possibly Blast weapons.  Both have a large bonus chance to hit saving you XP spent into Gunnery when you want to be concentrating on Fighting), a pair of THROWN RETURNING weapons taken from the low cost Picaro, and to help you close the gap, Nightfall missiles from a Bargol on one leg, and a Smoke Launcher on the other.  And a VC-5 from a vadel for INTERCEPT vs missiles.

Final stats:
MV/TR/SE:  -1/-1/+5 max speed 277

*however*  If you're going that heavily towards melee, the Pixie itself can be reworked to carry most of that gear (dropping probably the missiles and smoke launcher and a few other bits and bobs) and being a Class 5 is faster and more maneuverable.

But a more rounded approach with a melee backup like you seem to do is probably the saner way to go.

As for things to look out for salvage-wise besides the ones I've mentioned:
The Blades of Crihna heavy hover/areofighters have good computer programs that can be borrowed, although there are better computers on a couple of different mechs, the weapons I've mentioned are the main ones I make use of, but there's a few more that can be pretty good as well although I'm drawing a blank currently.  PHS-8's (Phase Cannon, DC 8 Armorpiercing) are good for people with the Sniper talent, but I don't think there are any reduced weight variants.  Very few special versions of the LAS-10 (Laser Cannon DC 10) as well, although it's also fairly nice.  In GH1 with the reduced weight LAS-10's from the Harpy and some PHS-8's from somewhere (and no energy pool to drain) you were just about set.

You'll probably have to check out the MUGL specific corporate stores to find a Pixie to buy, incidentally.

Also for close-range fighters, I really recommend having some method of inflicting Haywire/Blind to keep people busy while you're closing the gap, and possibly some method of Overload status to get their MV lowered if they keep dodging you.  Nothing worse than being down to your melee weapon on a space map and getting one swing every 10-20 movement rounds as you pass by each other and missing.

Hmm, and I went smaller arms/same class legs on the first Savin variant I did above.  The Dao Deoji has some good Class 8 legs for an extra internal space to fit gear, and you can install limbs up to 1 size larger than the class/torso size of the mech you're working on.  And the Bargol arms are fairly decent Class 8's as well, with the downside that they come with Integral energy weapons that can't be removed.  Still, not a bad choice if you like the weapons they have.  (Dao Deoji arms are Class 9, incidentally, they're have decent mass reduction, but at 2 size classes higher than the Savin you couldn't use them on a Savin.  Although the Dao Deoji is also an excellent base frame to consider removing all unnecessary gear from and building up from.  Even slower than the Savin, but capable of packing in/carrying even more amounts of firepower.)

In case you couldn't tell, I spend a lot of time comparing and contrasting different gear from the different mechs. Heh.