GH2: Game Balance Issues?

[Katyusha]

Or just make dedicated ECM equipment be so damned heavy and space consuming that you need mecha specifically dedicated to it, and theyre sitting ducks. this makes EW useful to have, but if you dont have it, just blast the other dude's ECM guy. I mean *points at the US Navy EA-6 series* Those are pretty much sitting ducks when unescorted.

[JohnnyDmonic]

The problem with that is it puts a perhaps excessive difficulty on solo playthrough.

[Katyusha]

Not necessarily. A solo playthrough character is more likely to be combat oriented, so he'd have the necessary abilities required to dash in and vape the enemy's ECM guy.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Mysticism is meant to be the Shaolin Monk skill. It should represent nigh-superhuman focus and discipline... at least at the higher levels. I mean, I guess Rank 3 would be the ability to resist an open jar of Nutella in the fridge or something. Anyhow, that's why I thought stat boosting was appropriate. GearHead is a materialist universe; there are no supernatural effects, psychic powers or anything else like that. So, that may limit what we can do with it.

Most of the other ideas I had for the skill are still kinda buff-based. Maybe you can use the skill in combat X times a day to get a special effect of some type? Maybe something like the Super Robot Wars-inspired talent from the other thread- the ability to keep functioning despite massive damage for a certain time.

In addition to its main effect, Mysticism will be used in plots/faction events/etc of course.

[CCC]

- Mecha Piloting should be the only skill that's absolutely necessary.

I'll believe it when I see the victory file.

It's not easy. The way the character creation works now, you can't start a character with only Mecha Piloting... you'd need to create the character and then edit the file to remove the other skills.

Hmmm... for best results, you'd want high Reflexes, and a mecha armed only and entirely with Reflex-type weapons.

And a lancemate with a great Mecha Gunnery skill, high perception and lots of missiles.

Yes, a quest should be easy for a character optimized for that quest. This doesn't mean that it should be easy right from character creation. A PC with Mecha Piloting of 6 and 21 Reflexes can't finish an arena. The Athera Garden concert is meant to be a big deal; if you can complete it easily with such low stat/skills that's a problem.

IMO, the quest should be possible to finish with a skill value of 20. This could be Charm 22 + Performance 9, or Charm 12 + Performance 12 + Intrument 2, or any other combination. It should only really become easy around a skill value of 25. The earlier concerts should be easier, of course.

It appears that I'd assumed Charm had a higher effect on Performance than it does, in fact, have.

I still think that the quest can best be made a big deal by incorporating Renown checks, though; a character optimised for the quest can come in pretty close to being able to play well enough (especially after picking up the +2 violin from Artemis), but no matter the skill level the producer's first question would presumably be "how do you expect to get onto the stage if I've never heard of you?"

Mysticism is meant to be the Shaolin Monk skill. It should represent nigh-superhuman focus and discipline... at least at the higher levels.

Useful for defense against Taunt?

[Vair]

Mysticism is meant to be the Shaolin Monk skill. It should represent nigh-superhuman focus and discipline... at least at the higher levels. I mean, I guess Rank 3 would be the ability to resist an open jar of Nutella in the fridge or something. Anyhow, that's why I thought stat boosting was appropriate. GearHead is a materialist universe; there are no supernatural effects, psychic powers or anything else like that. So, that may limit what we can do with it.

As for lack of supernatural, I am aware of that but as for the rest: shouldn't the skill be rather called 'Discipline'? I mean, mysticism is far more than just some sort of willpower stat. It's knowledge of certain religions, practices (even if spiritual doesn't necessarily have to have tangible form in the game, occult rituals and so on happen IRL no matter whether one believes in their efficiency or not) etc. Still, making it just a stat-booster kinda takes away it's worth as a distinct skill unless helluva lot more plot elements depending on it would be introduced. Also, despite limiting the skill in usefulness there are still other functions it can have, which I've mentioned already earlier and which don't mean that player will be casting fireball spells left and right.

Also, just a lil suggestion: Maybe it would be better for discipline and determination despite damage to be dependent purely on Ego stat? After all one doesn't need to train under monks or develop himself to spiritual pursues to resist temptations.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Still, making it just a stat-booster kinda takes away it's worth as a distinct skill unless helluva lot more plot elements depending on it would be introduced. Also, despite limiting the skill in usefulness there are still other functions it can have, which I've mentioned already earlier and which don't mean that player will be casting fireball spells left and right.

As I said earlier, Mysticism will still be used in plots/events. Your earlier suggestions, while good, were all plot/event-type things. The question here is what specific effect the skill should have in the game. I don't want to repeat the Shrine Tour- given GH2's lower skill limits, it's not worth taking any skill for a one-time bonus.

This is the skill which should define monk/priest characters. So, how should that work?

Edit- Let me clarify what's going on. Mysticism in GH1 has three main uses- joining Hwang-Sa Temple, completing the Shrine Tour, and meditating at shrines for experience. Uses #1 and #2 are out, #3 isn't worth wasting a skill slot on because you'll never make back the XP investment. In GH2 Mysticism is also a clue skill like Science, Survival, Insight, and Code Breaking- you can use it on items to activate effects. Being a clue skill is not generally enough to justify a skill slot by itself. Either the skill doesn't get used often, or it becomes so common that the skill gets overvalued. So, most of the clue skills have secondary effects (or will get secondary effects).

It was suggested earlier that shrines be changed from providing XP to providing some kind of buff. This is what I was talking about when I said Mysticism should become a buff skill. This would not replace Mysticism's use as a clue skill, but would be something to set it apart from the others. The skill would still be used to measure knowledge of ritual, ancient languages, and mythology, just as it always has.

So, let me split the question into parts:

1) What should shrines do?

2) What unique game mechanic should Mysticism provide, if any? To answer for the other clue skills: Survival provides access to special items, especially the skill-training foods. Science will get invention. Insight will allow you to get info on NPCs; it currently also functions as one of the two best rumor skills. CodeBreaking has no unique effect, but gets enough plot/event usage that I don't think it's a problem.

3) What plot/event uses should Mysticism get in the L5 region?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSHjl_bZjpY

[Katyusha]

As CCC mentioned, perhaps defence against opposing taunt/intimidate/etc?



And randomly, maybe a cult of some sort? Im sure someone has an idea of how one could fit into the GH universe, which could be fun for mysticism oriented characters. Lord knows theres enough crazy cults even in current times

[plllizzz]

Unlocking a special 'Fireball' attack getting stronger with each lebvel of Mysticism ;p

kay, enough jokes

Mysticism as in GH, is something about the mastery of mind and body

it could be useful when a character using mysticism could make a 'focus your toughts' roll - sort of a bonus, which you can use in stressful situations - it could be used ferex. in recovering/resisting taunts [as mentioned earlier], maybe bonus for targeting for heavily wounded characters/immoblized mecha... damn, all those things could make Mysticism an obligatory skill, and I can't make up any actual restriction to them right now..

[Daemonward]

This is the skill which should define monk/priest characters. So, how should that work?

Will there be a Skepticism or Critical Thinking skill to counter Mysticism, or is that already covered by Science?

Personally, I would be glad to see this skill go. It doesn't really fit with the giant-robots-anime genre. That said...

1) What should shrines do?

-Meditating at a shrine could restore SP/MP and provide a morale boost based on a Mysticism skill roll.

2) What unique game mechanic should Mysticism provide, if any?

-Maybe have some martial arts moves that require ranks in Mysticism to unlock.

-Mysticism could be used to treat injuries. Disclaimer: Only works when used in conjunction with treatment provided by trained medical professionals and cannot heal severed limbs.

3) What plot/event uses should Mysticism get in the L5 region?

Aside from social engineering, it's hard to find any practical, real world uses for Mysticism. Knowledge of Mysticism could be used to solve Mysticism-based puzzles and fight Mysticism-based opponents/ideologies:

-Crazy Zero-Winged-Angel cultists are raiding biotech research labs and mecha foundries for parts/technology to prepare a body for their master(who is actually: a rogue AI looking for a body/an Aegis spy gathering technological secrets/a zealous priest/a telepathic biotech creature similar to Ladon/etc).

-A wave of nihilism is sweeping the spinners. Can the PC can find the source and counter it?

-Maybe a string of quests related to building and running your own shrine: find a holy/sacred relic, get funding, find a site, construction, visitors, etc.

-There could be something similar to the Repair skill's "Iplfuvrs's mech is in the shop" type jobs. Like you hear "Mlunepc has been feeling down lately." and you give him some pep talk or teach him some meditation techniques(difficulty is modified by the NPC's Spiritual/Pragmatic score).

[Frumple]

Aside from social engineering, it's hard to find any practical, real world uses for Mysticism.

I feel what you're saying, but caveat: Mr. H is talking more about the ascetic tradition than general organized religion, I do believe, which can be a rather considerably different kettle of fish. There's a fair number of basic, at-'worst'-agnostic practices involved in real-world asceticism that have both psychological and physiological benefits -- simple breathing control and things like yoga are a fairly decent pair of examples. If the majority of the first world picked up even minor meditation techniques -- the stuff completely divorced from religious influence -- I've little doubt the number of death-by-stress related incidents would plummet. Sure, most of what's involved is in the process of slowly being subsumed into psychiatric care techniques, but one shouldn't ignore the decades/centuries/millennia of previous tradition.

Ties into medicine and morale would definitely fit into that, though. Solid idea, methinks. Maybe do a little missonary-style (take your innuendo somewhere else, darnit) stuff; go teach a class some of your practices, hold talks between cultural groups, things like that. I could see the Meatyard having some humanitarian-related stuff to do related to those lines.

Combat bonii, possibly talent enabled, might be a good tie in. Toughness, medicine, performance, awareness, non-gun combat, and insight could all probably thematically manage, possibly situational, mysticism related bonuses, actually. Not entirely sure how at the moment, as I have an entirely too massive headache, but the possibility's there.

[Daemonward]

I feel what you're saying, but caveat: Mr. H is talking more about the ascetic tradition than general organized religion, I do believe, which can be a rather considerably different kettle of fish. There's a fair number of basic, at-'worst'-agnostic practices involved in real-world asceticism that have both psychological and physiological benefits -- simple breathing control and things like yoga are a fairly decent pair of examples. If the majority of the first world picked up even minor meditation techniques -- the stuff completely divorced from religious influence -- I've little doubt the number of death-by-stress related incidents would plummet. Sure, most of what's involved is in the process of slowly being subsumed into psychiatric care techniques, but one shouldn't ignore the decades/centuries/millennia of previous tradition.

While there may be a few grains of wisdom to be gleaned from ancient knowledge/tradition, the vast majority of it is chaff that should be discarded. Gaining knowledge of the beliefs and practices of various cultures can be a mind broadening experience. Actively buying into such beliefs tends to have the opposite effect.

Ties into medicine and morale would definitely fit into that, though. Solid idea, methinks. Maybe do a little missonary-style (take your innuendo somewhere else, darnit) stuff; go teach a class some of your practices, hold talks between cultural groups, things like that. I could see the Meatyard having some humanitarian-related stuff to do related to those lines.

I would think that teaching would already be the job of ACADEMIC professions(aka scientist and teacher) and humanitarian activities aren't limited to the religious(who, more often then not, use it as a chance to proselytize to a captive audience).

Combat bonii, possibly talent enabled, might be a good tie in. Toughness, medicine, performance, awareness, non-gun combat, and insight could all probably thematically manage, possibly situational, mysticism related bonuses, actually. Not entirely sure how at the moment, as I have an entirely too massive headache, but the possibility's there.

From this alone, I would say that Mysticism is too vaguely defined. What is skill in Mysticism and what can you do with it? How is a monk different than someone trained in Close Combat, Athletics, and Concentration? How is a priest different from someone trained in Conversation?

[JohnnyDmonic]

I think temporary stat bonus is a fine idea for mysticism, the only real problem is that currently in game there is little call for 'on demand' burst buffs.  Maybe make them random effect?  'Your zenlike attack fills you with the strength of a lion' +body.  'speed of a cheetah' +speed 'stamina of the water buffalo' partial health/stamina refill

[Joseph Hewitt]

While there may be a few grains of wisdom to be gleaned from ancient knowledge/tradition, the vast majority of it is chaff that should be discarded. Gaining knowledge of the beliefs and practices of various cultures can be a mind broadening experience. Actively buying into such beliefs tends to have the opposite effect.

Fie thee, reality! Fie! I'm getting flashbacks to the ScienceBlogs accommodationism war...

It should go without saying that we're talking about the genre fiction version of mysticism here, not real world mysticism. I take it that you object to this as an endorsement of magical thinking, and I can understand that. I felt the same way about the herbal medicine shop in Pokemon (no, I am not being sarcastic, ask my wife).

Yes, Science would be the skepticism/critical thinking skill... unless you're one of them lousy accommodationists, of course.

From this alone, I would say that Mysticism is too vaguely defined. What is skill in Mysticism and what can you do with it?

The mystic meditates for a bit, then does something badass. What's the difference between a mystic and Phil Plait with kung fu? Genre convention, mostly.. also the meditation and probably the fashion accessories. Take Katori from Irresponsible Captain Tyler- he can make the Soyokaze do anything once he's completed his tea ceremony and entered the zone.

I'm going to go with stat buffing, I think, unless someone suggests something better between now and the time it gets implemented.

[EuchreJack]

For the sake of avoiding derailment, I set up another topic for discussion ideas on winning with only mecha piloting.

An idea on boosting the abilities of Survival and Mysticism:

Currently, Repair is used to bring a dead mech back to life.  Let's expand on that to the individual:

Mysticism should give a percentage chance based on its level and the player's spirituality of allowing the character to "fight on" even when they are brought to zero hitpoints.  Maybe even allow a number of "negative hitpoints" equal to mysticism.  How's that for badass?

Survival should be what it has always been: the ability to survive!  Thus, whenever the PC has to make a "death check", survival should add to that.  In essense, survival determines such little things as "did I really put my spacesuit on right?" and other things.  It also reflects the ability of a severely-injured, barely conscious person to make the right decisions to survive the "death check".  This in conjunction with what has been mentioned, of course.

So adding these abilities to the already-proposed ones should definitely restore them to "useable, but not mandatory" skills.  It is sort of like repair, in that many will take the skill as an extra roll to avoid death, but many will take something in hopes of avoiding the death roll all-together.

Regarding mysticism, shrines, and buffing, one really cool idea would be an optional quest which requires the PC to enter an area with tons of poisonous creatures, and in the center of the area is a shrine where mysticism characters can pray and get total resistance to poison!  Eat that Cyberpunks!