Music Industry Plot

[shin]

Is it possible to play the Music Industry plot more than once in one game?

I'm curious as I'm always low on money, and since I play without save scumming, but restart on a death, it's starting to get tedious.

This plot is one of the easiest ways to earn some.

[EarthquakeDamage]

I mentioned a couple of these in another thread, I think, but here goes:

In GH1:  Sewer missions are fantastic cash cows once your personal combat skills are up to snuff (alternately, focus on defense and bring a horde of robots/animals for offense).  They're mediocre when you're weak, though, since depth is money.  Still, the first few levels of the sewers are pretty tame, so it's really not a bad way to go.

In GH2:  Playing in bars is a pretty reliable way to earn money, once your reputation is decent.  I'm pretty sure the pay is tied to rep, anyway.  These "missions" crop up all the time, even if the spinner has just one bartender.  If there isn't one being offered now, just rest for several hours.

Also GH2:  It doesn't earn money directly, but I highly recommend a visit to the Cayley mines.  I prefer the mines to other dungeons because the difficulty scales with depth, from very easy to nearly epic.  If you don't mind grinding, you can slowly earn enough combat XP in there to boost your stats (e.g. Reflexes) until you can safely tackle SF2 missions (where the money is).

Note that combat XP (even in GH1 AFAIK) is heavily affected by your gear (even in mecha combat).  The more expensive your equipment (minus food and treasure), including grenades and repair fuel, compared to the enemy, the less XP you get.

In both:  Salvaged mecha are the real reward of SF2 missions.  With a decent repair score and the Tech Vulture talent (which I personally dislike due to inventory clutter), mecha missions are a gold mine.

[shin]

I've always hated sewer diving, it's so mindless, and I hate hunting for the stairs. I might enjoy it more if there were just close located stairs, and I had a sufficient cadre to do the work for me of robots -- due to the random deaths.

I've had some good characters killed by overpowered surprises in many places, whether it's suddenly getting sucked into the BioCorp Lab mission, or heading to the second level under the fortress, or just random chances getting a hand blown off despite Maximus and Android armor, and a decent vitality.

The game is a bit unbalanced on the death side, it really plays more like a game you -would- use the saved games for. Honestly, Angband, etc. I find easier because after a bit you know what to do and not to do and the random death chance is low as long as you behave correctly.

I can't get into GH2, the change in graphics bugs me so I'll stick with GH1, or at least I will when I go back to it. Need a break. Too many dead promising characters and money grinding.

Going to go play Dwarf Fortress for a bit instead. GH1 has been very fun but I need a break.

[Frumple]

Could say some things on the balance, but I'm tired, so nah. The one thing I'd mention is that, for the GH1 sewer missions, the enemies always spawn more or less on top of the stairs. Makes finding the way down easy, yeh.

[xpace]

Quoting: shin

The game is a bit unbalanced on the death side, it really plays more like a game you -would- use the saved games for.

I agree. It's much too easy to end up dead or crippled for life. Which, admittedly, is a realistic simulation of combat. But it's not so much fun...

Yes, for a game without a save-state per se, it can be problematic and very frustrating at times (without savescumming). Perhaps, to compensate, it should be re-balanced to rely a bit less on blind luck and more on skill and strategy? I never was a big fan of random number generators in games...

Do note, however, that for those who find the money grinding too tedious, one always as the option (in either GH1 or GH2) of starting over with a new character while inheriting all the money, skills and personal gear from the old one. That helps a lot - and it's technically not even cheating.

[Vair]

Quoting: xpace

I agree. It's much too easy to end up dead or crippled for life. Which, admittedly, is a realistic simulation of combat. But it's not so much fun...

And to throw in my opinion, I would disagree. Maybe it's some sort of inner roguelike gamer talking through me, but I have completely no problem with grave injuries or death. First, it's rarely complete random - when you die, it's usually because you've taken up fight far beyond your league and most permanently harmed individuals can fix some of what they lack with biotechnology gadgets.

Also, after getting through painful beginning I never had problems with money - and I wasn't mecha-retrieving tech vulture. With current, very low price of mecha repair and weapon reloading and mountrains of cash one gets after selling weapons of enemy machines from the last battle, it's rather nothing hard.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Quoting: Vair

it's rather nothing hard.

I would quibble with this a little bit. It's not hard after you know the game fairly well, but getting to that point can be frustrating.

[shin]

Well, I am a big fan of realistic game programming, and making it more so, I've tried to do so on some of my own projects.

But there is a point where hmm, it can either go so far unless you make dying fun, that is, the game is varied enough that restarting and dying is interesting enough that you don't mind.

Dwarf Fortress is like that, I think this game could achieve that, as more plots are generated and there're more unique quests for the various starting characters.

The thing that makes dying more fun is if your characters die in interesting ways. It's not particularly interesting if some bio worm rolls a critical getting lucky and blows your hand off for the most part.

Now if you failed a music roll and people got angry enough to rush the stage and attack you because you screwed up a concert, that would be a fun way to die.

[xpace]

Quoting: Vair

Maybe it's some sort of inner roguelike gamer talking through me, but I have completely no problem with grave injuries or death.

Really? You have no problem with starting over again... and again... and again...?

Quoting: Vair

First, it's rarely complete random - when you die, it's usually because you've taken up fight far beyond your league...

That might be the case a lot of the time. And, admittedly, I'm still learning exactly when to run away and how important that is. But from my experience, some pretty nasty random stuff pops up now and then which can obliterate even an experienced and well equipped PC.

Quoting: Vair

...and most permanently harmed individuals can fix some of what they lack with biotechnology gadgets.

Granted. But it's still expensive and it still bites. Consider if you've already nearly maxed out cybernetics. Or, worse, what if your PC has avoided bionics to complete the Shrine Tour (GH1)?

Quoting: Vair

Also, after getting through painful beginning I never had problems with money - and I wasn't mecha-retrieving tech vulture. With current, very low price of mecha repair and weapon reloading and mountrains of cash one gets after selling weapons of enemy machines from the last battle, it's rather nothing hard.

At least you admit that the beginning can be painful. But that's just it, a lot of us like to start - and restart - from the beginning. The easy way out is to use the old game to start a new one with all the money, experience, and personal equipment. Something I do myself at times. But some don't play that way.

Basically, this all boils down to the difficulty and how experienced one is in playing (and how well one memorizes everything in the game). And some rogue-like fans are much less upset about sudden death than others. But I'm not the only one here who thinks that too much realism is too much... at least for a game with no save state. But, perhaps, the solution would be a difficulty setting? Personally, I think all single-player games should have that feature. And I've played a lot of games.

Quoting: shin

...unless you make dying fun, that is, the game is varied enough that restarting and dying is interesting enough that you don't mind.

The thing that makes dying more fun is if your characters die in interesting ways.

I will admit that it helps. And perhaps it'd be neat if GH2 kept track of how each character dies and displays a chart of high scores with deaths, like many other games? But I still think it's small compensation.

I'll say this, though: I found death in Ragnarok (a DOS roguelike) nearly fun because of that (death scores) and how one could find your previous character's corpse and nearly all his/her equipment and money. How about a third choice on starting over?: Corpse Restart? That way you have to go retrieve your old character's stuff (and some of it might be missing)?

[Joseph Hewitt]

Quoting: shin

the game is varied enough that restarting and dying is interesting enough that you don't mind.

I think this point is key. The early game needs more variety and choices.

Quoting: xpace

But from my experience, some pretty nasty random stuff pops up now and then which can obliterate even an experienced and well equipped PC.

I'm going to start a separate thread for posting deaths- if I know where people are dying I'll have a better idea what the problem is.

[Vair]

Quoting: xpace

Really? You have no problem with starting over again... and again... and again...?

Nah, I more often trade it for less painful exp-gathering till it's not so easy to kill me. Also, I am not some sort of Gearhead uber-player - I do die. But if it's perma-death, I can get back to auto-or-not savefile from battle and try either different tactic or running away.

I presume that aside from the case when player needs to stop playing for some time, save function is for situations when you're completely screwed (I don't take old-school savescumming into consideration here when one keeps on saving and reloading every turn or so no matter if worst case scenario is game over or not).

Quoting: xpace

That might be the case a lot of the time. And, admittedly, I'm still learning exactly when to run away and how important that is.

Like most of us do

Quoting: xpace

But from my experience, some pretty nasty random stuff pops up now and then which can obliterate even an experienced and well equipped PC.

True that. I am not fond of such thing but I guess time spent playing unbalanced 'oh hai, mithril titan battlemage! wut r u doin on 2nd lvl?' roguelikes got me a bit accustomed to such things. And disgusted by autobalanced games like Oblivion

Quoting: xpace

Granted. But it's still expensive and it still bites.

Oh yes it does.. but wasn't that the point of whole 'you're crippled' thingy?

Quoting: xpace

But I'm not the only one here who thinks that too much realism is too much... at least for a game with no save state.

Care to explain? I thought you can save in Gearhead and in fact while I am playing GH2 I often leave autosave on.

Quoting: xpace

But, perhaps, the solution would be a difficulty setting?

It would be, tho I'd rather have possibilities. That is, different things that player can do and different places that can be visited that vary in in difficulty and rewards but can be used as substitutes of each other. We already talked about different plot's results and goals, maybe that would be a solution?

 Kind of like 'You can try to use your lead to space pirate base and gun them all down then steal their valuable loot, rare and illegal weapons and cyberware or you can just contact local police force which will do the messy work for you, but also offer far lesser (although legal) reward'.

 Of course, lot of time will pass before something like this will be implemented but I am quite sure that in the longer run amount of work on mechanic and then balancing-to-fun ratio will be a lot better.

Quoting: shin

But there is a point where hmm, it can either go so far unless you make dying fun, that is, the game is varied enough that restarting and dying is interesting enough that you don't mind.

Dwarf Fortress is like that, I think this game could achieve that, as more plots are generated and there're more unique quests for the various starting characters.

I would agree here - sure, I don't really think of losing being other way of saying 'fun' like many players in DF community (if I recall correctly, even Toady in some interview said that he didn't think of such extent while creating this sentence) but sometimes sheer WTF expression of 'He killed me HOW?' makes up for feel of loss. I hope GH will offer moments like that as well in the future.

[shin]

When you think about realism in gaming, it's largely no good to make a perfectly realistic game that is about combat -- and I say this very reluctantly but it is the truth.

If you make a game perfectly realistic about the deaths and injuries that can be acquired from combat, in the end combat is too real, because there are real human limits there and real aspects of randomness there that mean however good you are, someone with no combat experience at all can kill you very easily. Period. And moreover, the odds are extremely good that someone will. You WILL NOT survive however good you are, fighting in combat long enough. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

Perfectly realistic games are best made not about combat.

Because a completely untrained person is pointing a gun in your direction and pulling the trigger, your odds are bad. You are not fast enough to get out of the way even if you spent twenty years trying to learn how and were in the Olympics, the bullet is faster than you.

If someone really wants to kill you, in real life, that person if the person has any brains at all, will succeed because all you need is to get the jump on someone, and that is that, despite many precautions.

But in games you play to at least be assured your investment of time into the life of a character is not going to be wiped out easily. So, you have to give people a certain fluff factor that allows them to wake up and get out of harms way in time -- if the odds are, that just playing the game at the highest ability, something random will take you out playing it for a couple of weeks, the odds of danger are too great.

Special high technology armor, etc. all this can explain to a certain degree in a fantastic way why you will survive long enough to after having encountered something incredibly dangerous, to get the heck out of dodge.

To make a game with a high odds of dying fun, you have to make the 'taking precautions against it' part fun, as well as the restart. I love character building and trying out different starting talents myself so it took awhile for that to get old.

Right now my next plan is to go crazy with robots, and just make sure my main character is always surrounded by target dummies in the hopes that this is what will save the day for him, though it's still going to be a grind to get him up to talent enough where I feel safe enough sending him out in a mech against some of the bosses that the odds of days of work preparing him going down the drain are acceptable enough.

I think I read that the way the game is designed now, a potato thrown can conceivably take out the worst enemy, due to the way the combat rolls go. I would get rid of this, even if the odds are one in a million -- it's just not a good way to get rid of a great character, who deserves to die for a little more cause than a random high roll with an ordinary everyday potato tosser. Perhaps that potato can do a percentage of damage that scares you badly, but no insta kills.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Quoting: shin

If you make a game perfectly realistic

Let's nip this one in the bud right now- the point of GearHead is not to be a realistic game. The question of whether or not it's too easy to die is completely unrelated to the question of whether or not it's realistic.

Quoting: shin

I think I read that the way the game is designed now, a potato thrown can conceivably take out the worst enemy

This was true of an earlier version of GH1, but is not currently true of either GH1 or GH2.

[SharkD]

Would be cool if the music plot had some sinister aspects. Maybe there's a shadow purpose of using the music for the purposes of mind control that the PC doesn't know about?