Stat requirements for using equipment

[SharkD]

Should there be stat requirements (e.g., Reflexes, Body, Speed) for using certain mecha or personal equipment?

For example, one might need a certain level in Body to wear a certain piece of body armor. Or, a certain level in Reflexes to wield a flail weapon.

Generally speaking, how could stat-checks be implemented in a meaningful way throughout the game?

[macksting]

Failing to meet requirements in the Body stat do, in a sense, already penalize the character in the form of weight; higher weight means lower reflexes and speed. Another thought is that increased weight might, with time, lower one's Stamina points, but that is not currenlty the case to my knowledge.
By the same token, some equipment causes strain on the points rather directly, including a few Zeron thingies. This seems like a meaningful representation of a stat requirement; the higher the meaningful stat/skill training, the more effectively you can use it.

[SharkD]

Here's one idea (adapted from Jagged Alliance 2): encumberence could cause an increased drain in stamina points. Then, when you run out of stamina points you could become unconcious and open to attack.

[Drakeson]

I thought your movement was slowed when you carried too much?
I agree that there should be some stat requirements but not massive, you already have the skills which you need to use each weapon (weapons, guns, big guns) so maybe it would be more appropriate to impose a stat requirement to get those skills. If you know how to swing a bat you can probably work out a sword, flail might need a new skill because it is really a totally different tallent to rigid weapons. If you can lift a gun though, and you know how to fire it, what's stopping you?
The base skill is still included in the roll now so I suppose that does limit what you would choose to equip. Maybe have a skill level for each device and failure to roll over that skill level results in a fumble / critical error.
All a bit complicated though, I like how simple this game is.

[Joseph Hewitt]

Quoting: Drakeson

All a bit complicated though, I like how simple this game is.

I agree. I think the game is balanced farily well the way it is now, and I don't really see what minimum stat requirements would add to it.

[SharkD]

Quoting: Drakeson

Maybe have a skill level for each device and failure to roll over that skill level results in a fumble / critical error.

I like that idea. Critical failures would give players some unoverlookable feedback that they're doing something wrong by not choosing their skills properly.

I don't mean for us to limit ourselves to equipment or combat, either. (I wanted to change the thread title to remove the word 'equipment'.) What other opportunities are there for stat/skill checks to be used?

[Drakeson]

Code breaking, you set off the alarm.
diplomacy, you make a social fopa.
Mecha engineering, you break the bit (it's already in)
Flirtation, you let slip that you live with your mum (mom).
Robotics, you make and evil robot that tries to kill you and yours.
Medical, "the red thing's connected to my, wrist watch... uh oh"
etc you get the idea.

While all of this could be implemented through skill roll results and I assume the modifiers could be easily installed it is not neccesary and, if you use the autosave function, it may prove disasterous.

[Phil Munoz]

i don't recall any rogue-like having a stat requirement.  i thought the idea of rogue-likes is you can equip anything and everything, but you'd suffer the consequences of not having enough stats or skill to use whatever you're wielding/wearing.

anyone can pick up a gun and fire it.  hitting something is a different matter.
anyone can pick up a sword and swing it, fighting with it and getting a successful hit is a different matter.

same thing with armor.  you can wear any suit, but it's not guaranteed you can move well enough when you have that suit on.

[SharkD]

Quoting: Drakeson

Robotics, you make and evil robot that tries to kill you and yours.

Hahaha! That's a good one.

Quoting: Phil Munoz

i don't recall any rogue-like having a stat requirement.

Well, there can always be a first
I don't see how "because everyone else does it" can be a valid argument. Is GearHead a game or is it a clique? Is there some secret roguelike handshake I'm missing?

Quoting: Phil Munoz

anyone can pick up a gun and fire it. hitting something is a different matter.
anyone can pick up a sword and swing it, fighting with it and getting a successful hit is a different matter.

That's not true. Take the minigun Arnold Schwarzenegger uses in The Predator... Do you think you could lift that, let alone aim and fire it?? Having a minimum strength requirement for weapons of that size is realistic, IMO.

[Phil Munoz]

Quoting: SharkD

That's not true. Take the minigun Arnold Schwarzenegger uses in The Predator... Do you think you could lift that, let alone aim and fire it?? Having a minimum strength requirement for weapons of that size is realistic, IMO.

point well taken.  However, if such a weapon would cause much encumbrance, wouldn't normal encumbrance penalties be enough?  If you can't pick up a weapon, then you can't use it.  Strength requirement would be redundant.  All that's needed is some kind of check whether the character can pick up a weapon or not.

Quoting: SharkD

Well, there can always be a first
I don't see how "because everyone else does it" can be a valid argument. Is GearHead a game or is it a clique? Is there some secret roguelike handshake I'm missing?

A game is a game.  If you put stat requirements, that reminds me of hack and slash games.  It's not something that's entirely original either so you're just moving from one clique to another.

I may have poorly worded my opinion. What I mean is that rogue-likes don't use such a system because most rogue-likes have a weight encumbrance system that would better represent whether or not a character would be successful in using heavy weapons.

I'm not sure about the details of gearhead's weight system, but I think it's sufficient enough to not need a stat requirement system for weapons.

Say, if you want to carry a minigun, that weighs around maybe 50 kg (rough estimate for a minigun designed for use in a vehicle) or so.  A character who can carry 50 kg can use it (probably carrying nothing else),  A character who can't won't even be able to pick it up, much less use it.  In my opinion, that would be more realistic than a stat requirement.

[macksting]

Aaaaand let's try that again.


I beg to differ, at least on the logical progression spoken here. A character in Gearhead can use pretty much any gun s/he can lift, and you can lift a limitless amount, it seems. If you don't quite grasp what I'm saying, try entering Kist at higher levels. You'll find that you can carry more than you could ever imagine, but you'll also find you can't move very well. At all.
Yes, this is quite the penalty, and I'll also say that, yes, this penalizes the relevent stat for firing small arms, but for some reason, that high-calibre minigun still hits just as often even if you've got a strength of 2. For a weapon with muzzle climb issues, like a truly automatic shotgun, strength = control. True?

[Anticheese]

Wow, You've been keeping busy with those posts havent you?

Just check if the name and password boxes are full and you should be allright.

[Joseph Hewitt]

How's this for a solution: Add a "recoil" attribute for big guns that will apply a targeting penalty to certain guns if the user's body stat isn't high enough.

[Phil Munoz]

Quoting: macksting

A character in Gearhead can use pretty much any gun s/he can lift, and you can lift a limitless amount, it seems.

then, put in place a limit.

[Anticheese]

There is a limit, After your character lifts alot of stuff his/her speed attribute will drop so low it takes him 4 minutes to move!