Author Topic: "So I heard you like hurting people...  (Read 1847 times)

Offline jtgibson

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« on: September 21, 2009, 02:25:46 PM »
...so I stuck a melee weapon on your melee weapon so you can hurt people while you hurt people."


Any chance we can get melee weapons to accept melee weapons in their subcomponents?  This would allow multiple use weapons, to wit:

[BEGIN]
%This does not currently work as of GearHead 2 v.535
%Periods were added as indentation and are not part of normal syntax.

Melee 5
Name <Quarterstaff>
Desc <Two ends of whacking fun.>
Category <WEAPON MELEE>
Speed 4
Legality 0
sub
....Melee 4
....Name <Quarterstaff Backstroke>
....Speed 3
end
[END]

We are still able to simulate it to a limited degree, thanks to tools' subcomponent feature:

[BEGIN]
%Works great as of GearHead 2 v.535!
%Periods were added as indentation and are not part of normal syntax.

Tool 15 1
Name <Crowbar>
Desc <When the only tool you have is a crowbar...>
Category <TOOL WEAPON MELEE>
Speed 3
Legality -5
sub
....Melee 4
....Name <Crowbar Bludgeon>
....Type <NONLETHAL>
....Speed 3
....
....Melee 5
....Name <Crowbar Hook>
....Speed 1
....Type <ARMORPIERCING>
end
[END]

...However, this semantically requires that the item has an actual tool use of some sort.  You can drop the skill benefit from "Tool 15 1" to "Tool 15 0" so it provides +0 to the skill (Mecha Repair in this case), but then it obviates the reason why you'd make it a tool at all.


[edit] Whoops.  Discovered that I had downloaded but not extracted v.610.  v.610 actually breaks compatibility with the Tool macro in a bad way (sigh), so I'll have to work out what's changed before I can make a current report.

[edit2] Tool 15 1 (Mecha Repair +1) and Tool 23 1 (General Repair +1) were rendered equivalent with RepairTool 1 (Repair +1).  Meh.  I never was fond of the reduction in the skill list, which is probably why I downloaded but never installed v.602... but playing with the new version does seem like an improvement after all.

Offline Frumple

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 03:17:26 PM »
Truth, this works;

Quoting:  
Melee 6
Name <So I heard you like axes...>
desc <So I stuck an axe on your axe so you can axe people while you axe people.>
Type <THROWN>
category <WEAPON MELEE TOOL>
factions <FEDER>
SDL_PORTRAIT <item_woodaxe.png>
legality -10
Speed 3
sub
   Melee 6
   Name <So I heard you like axes...>
   desc <So I stuck an axe on your axe so you can axe people while you axe people.>
   Type <THROWN>
   category <WEAPON MELEE TOOL>
   factions <FEDER>
   SDL_PORTRAIT <item_woodaxe.png>
   legality -10
   Speed 3
   integral
end


So long as it's got the integral flag, it works. Was implemented a few versions ago. Generally only accepts weapons of various stripes, iirc.

Also haha cut and paste.

EDIT: Arghthee
Edit the duex: Also, I have no bloody idea how a throwing weapon will react to the integral flag. Use that at your own risk.
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Offline EarthquakeDamage

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 04:05:51 PM »
Problem:  Having two separate weapons as subcomponents (in the tool example) or a separate weapon as a subcomponent will affect the weapon's PV, especially if the parent weapon is overstuffed.  This will affect combat XP.

Offline jtgibson

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 04:06:25 PM »
Aha!  Lemme give it a whirl.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2009, 04:17:18 PM »
Quoting: EarthquakeDamage
Problem: Having two separate weapons as subcomponents (in the tool example) or a separate weapon as a subcomponent will affect the weapon's PV

Why is this a problem?

Offline Frumple

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2009, 04:20:28 PM »
Can't the fudge flag cut the price down, and thus the PV? Iffin yeh don't want the PV increase, don't have it.
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Offline Joseph Hewitt

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 04:21:50 PM »
Quoting: Frumple
Can't the fudge flag cut the price down, and thus the PV?

Fudge doesn't affect PV, at least not in GH2.

Offline Frumple

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2009, 04:27:04 PM »
Ah ha. Curses. Well, not that I really minded or anything, I guess. Is there a flag that drops PV? Would there be any point (beyond artificially upgunning the enemy) to implementing one? (I'd probably say not really, hah.)
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Offline Joseph Hewitt

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2009, 04:30:18 PM »
Quoting: Frumple
Is there a flag that drops PV? Would there be any point (beyond artificially upgunning the enemy) to implementing one?

No and no. What possible purpose would it serve?

Offline jtgibson

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2009, 05:09:38 PM »
Back to the matter of double-ended melee weapons, it works grand with the Integral flag.  Thanks Frumple!

Regarding the matter of PV, yeah, I really don't see it as a problem that a versatile weapon with multiple attack options is given a point value equal to the sum of its parts.


Maybe I'm just obsessive when it comes to sticking things onto other things.

*points to his pigeon-rat*

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2009, 05:21:20 PM »
You could get a grant from the government department of sticking things onto other things.

Offline EarthquakeDamage

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2009, 05:53:22 PM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
Why is this a problem?


Consider the backswing on that quarterstaff.  I'm not going to bother looking up the algorithm and doing the math, but the backswing weapon might up the staff's PV beyond where it'd be if he just increased the speed rating (and thus had the same attack rate, but with all of them at a full 5 DC).

For a staff, that won't much matter, since it's cheap.  But consider a stun setting for an expensive weapon, implemented as an integral subcomponent.  That could be very expensive (thus monetary cost) and significantly cut your combat XP, thus slowing character growth.  And you get no added combat effectiveness for it, either (which is presumably the reason that PV affects XP).

So all I meant was that there's a potential problem with his example, given the game mechanics.

IIRC I had trouble modding in a combination weapon once upon a time.  I think one had to wait until the other was ready to fire before it could be fired.  So an integral grenade launcher might not be able to fire between assault rifle bursts, or whatever.  If your backswing's working flawlessly then either that's changed or my memory is as clear as a ton of bricks.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2009, 06:48:53 PM »
Quoting: EarthquakeDamage
Consider the backswing on that quarterstaff. I'm not going to bother looking up the algorithm and doing the math, but the backswing weapon might up the staff's PV beyond where it'd be if he just increased the speed rating (and thus had the same attack rate, but with all of them at a full 5 DC).

Possibly. The double weapon may still be more useful than the single weapon with higher speed, though- the backstroke can also be used to parry attacks, and if you have a really really high speed the qs+bs would allow 7 attacks per round.

Quoting: EarthquakeDamage
I think one had to wait until the other was ready to fire before it could be fired.

No. The components of a combination weapon fire independently of one another.

Offline EarthquakeDamage

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
the backstroke can also be used to parry attacks


Touché.

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
The components of a combination weapon fire independently of one another.


Always good to know when my memory fails.  :P

Offline Aquillion

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"So I heard you like hurting people...
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 02:46:11 AM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

No and no. What possible purpose would it serve?
For dealing with weapons that are actually less powerful than their calculated PV indicates?  Some unusual combinations of features might boost a weapon's PV without actually making it more powerful or effective...  I recall that in GH1 I was able to make a mecha whose PV came to something like 12 million (I had to redesign it to keep it from overflowing into negatives at one point) while still being utterly useless in combat.

Of course, that was a mecha (its individual components might still have been useful -- I wasn't seriously making something to use in play), and I was deliberately trying to break the system, but still...