Author Topic: Game Idea: LSH-Inspired Tactics RPG  (Read 2633 times)

Offline xpace

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Game Idea: LSH-Inspired Tactics RPG
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2009, 08:40:13 PM »
Quoting: Phil Munoz
My idea contribution is, instead of using all superpowered superhero-types, I was thinking of using elite normal humans... to give an example: Batman.  The guy has no superpower, but is a good fighter and has a good brain.  Now, Imagine a team of Batman-types fighting against a supervillain with overwhelming power.  The need for tactics would really arise, then, instead of a straight-forward let's-see-who-hits-harder brawl.

You'll get no argument from me that a Batman-type strategic thinker would be a great asset to any superhero team. But, I think Batman has more value in, say, the Justice League because he's clearly the best strategic thinker on the team and can be the brains of the operation. (That, and his gadgets come in handy.)

A whole team of Batmen, however, just would not be as impressive. First, you'd have a whole bunch of clones with the same "powers" and skills. Secondly, strength-wise, they couldn't compare with the likes of Superman, Wonderwoman, and Green Lantern.

Quoting: Igor Savin
Damn you, Joseph! I've been silently working under the rock on my ubersecret project, but this idea is just too tempting.

Looks like I'll have to branch out my efforts...

Good luck!
But realize that branching out means your time is divided between them. So it'd take that much longer to finish either.

Quoting: Igor Savin
Although I don't currently consider anything of a truly epic scope - expect a coffee-break stuff for a time being. Yet it gives a chance of something being actually completed...

I think that's the way to do it. Starting small has a lot of advantages vs. trying to bite off more than you can chew. I would imagine even big projects like GearHead had to start somewhere.

Also, from my programming courses and reading various Game Design materials, the one thing I remember clearly is the need to devote a lot of time to the design process. That is, even before a single line of code is written.

That said, have you considered trying to adapt the source code of GearHead 1 or GH2 to such a project? These are already Tactical RPGs. And both are licensed and distributed under LGPL GNU. If I recall, that allows derivatives as long as they're also licensed under LGPL and remain open-source.

Also, there are actually some game-maker programs and several open-source projects which allow fans to create their very own Tactical RPG. That is, without the need to program everything from scratch. Check out these two threads for more:

RMXP.ORG » Design and Development » Game and Application Development >
Would like to make a 2player ORPG (tactical,turn-based). Not sure what to do.

RMXP.ORG » Game Development » Game Development Discussion »
Will Enterbrain ever do a Tactical RPG Engine?

(Note: Some links are broken now. For example, the Yo-Yo Games site and thread about "Isometric Strategy RPG Engine" seems to be down temporarily.)

In a nutshell: If it were me, I would consider either building it with something like RMXP with Tactical RPG scripts or use the code from one of the open-source projects mentioned.

Quoting: Igor Savin
And no graphics. Sorry.

I'm confused...
Are you saying that your game will not have any graphics, ever? (Making it like a text-based rogue-like.)
Or, are you saying that you won't have any graphics to show us for a long time (such as after you have something working and can get others to contribute art)?

I'm sure that after you have something (perhaps with ugly place-holder graphics), others would be more than willing to contribute art and other stuff.

Offline SharkD

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Game Idea: LSH-Inspired Tactics RPG
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2009, 11:53:26 PM »
A tactical RPG could probably also be made using Xconq. I don't like the engine's user interface though.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Game Idea: LSH-Inspired Tactics RPG
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2009, 02:44:02 AM »
Igor! Long time no see. I would reply to this thread now, but I just got back from and am half asleep.

Quoting: Vair
Just please, not Star-Gods. I believe no mech should be able to take on something that was called a god by anyone who isn't gullible and/or primitive.

Obviously, you haven't read much LSH...

Offline Vair

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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2009, 04:15:32 AM »
I am just saying what I wouldn't like to see in game to enjoy it more :P

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2009, 06:10:59 AM »
Quoting: Vair
I am just saying what I wouldn't like to see in game to enjoy it more

Fair enough, but Legion of Super-Heroes (or even a LSH knockoff) without godlike entities just wouldn't be right.

Offline Igor Savin

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« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2009, 10:47:20 AM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
Igor! Long time no see.


I've come through hell and not even back yet :).

But time was kind to my roguelike skills.


Hope I won't ruin your idea with lousy execution.

Offline Igor Savin

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« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2009, 10:54:06 AM »
/Are you saying that your game will not have any graphics, ever?/

Not by me, anyway. I don't want to spend a single hour on it that I can spend on some feature\bugfix. But since my engine relies upon Valkyrie library, which supports abstract Output (which can be hooked to SDL), anyone interested enough can port everything onto graphics.


/without the need to program everything from scratch/

Currently I have much more than "from a scratch" (-:


/I would imagine even big projects like GearHead had to start somewhere/

Yeah. I remember how it all began... (old timer mode on)


/have you considered trying to adapt the source code of GearHead 1 or GH2 to such a project?/

I'm adapting my own sourcecode to this project :). GearHead was a cool school for me a long time ago, but my style of coding is too fundamentally different from Joseph's.

Offline xpace

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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 11:31:37 PM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
Fair enough, but Legion of Super-Heroes (or even a LSH knockoff) without godlike entities just wouldn't be right.

I have to agree. Both Marvel and DC universes often have fantastically powerful entities and foes. But especially Marvel.

However, perhaps we could call these powerful beings by other names - so as to please Vair and others who frown on the use of the name "god" (lowercase or otherwise)?

How about:

* Star Lord
* Star King
* Star Child
* Supreme
* Maximum
* Cosmic
* Cosmic Entity
* Being Cosmic
* Son Cosmic (or Daughter Cosmic)
* Elder
* Eternal
* Awareness

Also, for those who doubt regular superheroes could defeat such ridiculously over-powered cosmic beings... well, that's comics for you.

Apparently, superheroes face such opponents from time to time. Usually, this is done by exploiting a weakness (intentionally or not), catching the opponent in a moment of distraction, or otherwise being a hero and doing heroic stuff. Often times one or more heroes will be pummeled like a rag doll or even killed. But, the team often, somehow ends up saving the day, nonetheless.

And for the record, the heroes do not always have to destroy or even defeat such beings. Sometimes it's merely a matter of holding it off for a few critical moments or using a certain magical dohicky on it. Other times a hero will debate with it, appealing/arguing to it's sense logic or compassion. Sometimes the simple fact that mere mortals are able to make it feel pain or fight at full strength is enough to impress it so as to reconsider and leave the planet of puny mortals alone.

Even a demonstration of how the heroes fight so courageously or with noble spirit, despite how the odds are against them, may be enough. This is doubly so if one or more heroes are willing to sacrifice themselves for team mates, for mortals who hate them, or for villains - as such concepts are probably incomprehensible to their logic.

That, and certain superheroes (and anti-heroes) have god-like powers that come in handy. Some examples:

* The Scarlet Witch has the ability to manipulate probability via "hexes" (even manipulating the entire universe) and though she's been with the Avengers and other teams she's arguably one of the most powerful.
* Moondragon is arguably the most powerful Earth-born telepath in Marvel, capable of even controlling the entire population of a planet. Sometimes psionics is a villain's only true weakness.
* Doctor Strange is called "Sorcerer Supreme" and for good reason. Sometimes magic is a villain's only true weakness.

Then there's the nigh-invulnerable, almost infinitely strong brutes who usually give and take the brunt of the beating. Characters such as Superman, the Thing and various incarnations of the Hulk.

However, even regular superheroes can play pivotal roles against cosmic-level beings. Sometimes something as simple as flight or bright lights can be used to great effect. Even otherwise human characters such as Batman can save the day with a particularly brilliant plan or useful device.

Actually, I can see some comparisons with stereotypical fantasy RPGs. Namely, how the magic spell system nearly always allows the hero(es) to use it in a rock-paper-scissors fashion to exploit one or more weaknesses of enemies. Sometimes it's Earth/Water/Air/Fire, sometimes it's Holy/Dark or Spirit/Matter, or sometimes it's a weakness or paralysis, poison, petrification, confusion, etc, etc.

And you usually have to balance the characters in your fantasy team to do well. That is, one or more fighters to stay in the front to dish out and receive the brunt of physical blows (often times with a blunt weapon just to deal with skeletons and undead), a priest to both heal and turn undead, one or more mages to deal long-range and exploitive spell death, and, optionally, an archer for long range death.

Though there's usually no direct equivalents, I can see how a similar arrangement might be useful in a sci-fi superhero setting.

Offline xpace

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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2009, 12:10:11 AM »
What kind arrangement do you think would work for characters who've been taken down to 0 or negative hit points on torso?

I have three suggestions:

1) Offer "Cloning Insurance" to the heroes at a fixed price and their brain imprints should be updated regularly (also at fixed price) to save their experience (like saving the game). If one or more dies, they can be cloned back... with only missing the experience since their last imprint.

2) Offer a Nano-Tech Emergency Kit. Although quite expensive, such medical nanites should be able to resurrect the recently deceased (before leaving the area) and heal a certain amount. (Perhaps different grades heal different percentages for different prices?)

3) A sophisticated CPR / Life Support Machine (either portable or built into starship). An automatic system to provide CardioPulmonary Resuscitation, an injection of adrenaline, and/or life support as needed. I'm reminded of the ending in the Street Fighter (1994) movie with Van Damme. Specifically, M. Bison's high-tech uniform:
Guile gains the upper hand and smashes Bison into a computer, killing him, but a life-support machine resurrects the general, and he resumes his assault..."

This would allow characters to fight to the bitter end, with little in the way of consequences. Unless the entire team is defeated, of course. And the accumulation of crippling injuries and depletion of medical supplies would provide a limit.

BTW: What do others feel about having zombies and/or undead in sci-fi/superhero settings?

Such things are usually limited to fantasy settings. Although, increasingly, there seems to be been more zombies, werewolves, and vampires in modern and futuristic settings.

Personally, I have mixed feelings. It really depends on the game universe and how they are implemented.

For instance, I'm glad they're not in GearHead because there's no supernatural at all and they certainly would not fit. But if even a little bit of supernatural is allowed, then I suppose there is that possibility. In futuristic and modern settings they're usually just treated as very nasty infectious diseases.

Also, see my What's with Fast, Smart, Super-Zombies? thread for my rant on how zombies should not be done.

Offline Ramidel

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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2009, 04:16:44 AM »
Easy. Superheroes suffer from comic book death and resurrections are even cheaper than in D&D.

Honestly, quasi-supernatural resurrections (Phoenix, anyone?) seem a bit more in-theme than messing with braintapes, or at best a "clone lab" a la Phantasy Star II. The cloned Superman in the Death and Return saga didn't have any memory loss (of course, resurrection was the least of his problems...). Point being, death should usually be cheap unless a villain has some kind of cosmic erasure power.

As for heroes being able to beat Elder Gods: I'll add to the chorus. Yes, it happens. Marvel's Celestials have been beaten on a few occasions, not to mention Galactus. So don't be shy about putting them in and letting the PCs punch them out.

Offline Igor Savin

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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2009, 05:08:07 AM »
Currently I'm aiming for Wizardry-8 styled combats (aka Might&Magic combat). I've toyed a bit with GearHead-styled combat, but didn't like it: all the range-conscious maneuvres don't actually feel heroish. So when it's time to fight, it'd be a frontal assault all right (with skirmish pre-phase perhaps).

What combat options there should be? Plan&simple attack - of course. Using superpowers (similar to spells? any other implementation suggestions?). Should there be rest, defend or protect others options (I wonder if anyone ever uses those)? Should I add "Tactics" settings (aggressive\defensive) for modifier adjustment? Anything else?

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2009, 07:06:57 AM »
Quoting: xpace
However, perhaps we could call these powerful beings by other names - so as to please Vair and others who frown on the use of the name "god" (lowercase or otherwise)?

Thinking it over, very few of their godlike opponents are actual gods. Darkseid is. Mordru is a Lord of Chaos, but not AFAIR worshiped as a god by anyone. The Time Trapper is definitely godlike but mostly unknown except to those whose lives he's messed up. With a cooler name the Sun-Eater would have made a lovely addition to the Cthulu mythos, but again not a god.

(Did anyone see how Mordru got taken out like a punk in the new LSH miniseries? Gah, worst deus ex machina ever... and he didn't even get to wipe the floor with Superman beforehand!!! How humiliating.)

Quoting: Ramidel
So don't be shy about putting them in and letting the PCs punch them out.

Well, it doesn't always have to be about punching them out, which is why I mentioned that it should be possible to win an encounter without necessarily defeating the big bad in combat. Usually the big villains don't get taken out in a straight-on fight but are instead somehow outsmarted or outmaneuvered. Mordru, Darkseid, and the Time Trapper in particular never really get defeated, merely contained.

Offline xpace

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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2009, 10:14:37 AM »
Quoting: Ramidel
Honestly, quasi-supernatural resurrections (Phoenix, anyone?) seem a bit more in-theme than messing with braintapes, or at best a "clone lab" a la Phantasy Star II... [snip] Point being, death should usually be cheap unless a villain has some kind of cosmic erasure power.

Well, I guess a "clone lab" like Phantasy Star II would be OK. But I don't think that death should be too cheap. Otherwise, I think it would cheapen the game.
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
Well, it doesn't always have to be about punching them out, which is why I mentioned that it should be possible to win an encounter without necessarily defeating the big bad in combat.

Yep. That's sooo true.

That said, I think encounters with Cosmic Beings should be rare. I'm thinking they could be reserved for a role like a boss in those old FPS's and side-scrollers. Perhaps they have to be dealt with for the main story plot and/or major side quests? Or, perhaps they happen to inhabit a star system with alien artifacts (sort of like the Guardian ship protecting Orion in Master of Orion II)? I could even see them as potential quest-givers, provided the player approaches them with the right attitude.

Quoting: Igor Savin
Currently I'm aiming for Wizardry-8 styled combats (aka Might&Magic combat).

IMO, it is a pretty good system. Though, it might have it's limits in a rogue-like game.

Quoting: Igor Savin
I've toyed a bit with GearHead-styled combat, but didn't like it: all the range-conscious maneuvers don't actually feel heroish. So when it's time to fight, it'd be a frontal assault all right (with skirmish pre-phase perhaps).

How would this "pre-phase skirmish" work? Is it like getting in real close (in-your-face)and then being allowed an opening salvo before the actual fight? If that's the case, it sounds even more cowardly than fighting at range.

If any sort of fighting takes place in the air (via flight) or outer space, then I can't see how ranged combat could be avoided. Depending on the enemy and circumstances, I don't consider guns, psionics, or energy blasts to be inherently cowardly. Also, attacking from distance is a major part of military strategy - esp. since it's much easier to take advantage of the terrain (trees, rocks, elevation, etc).

Also, against a Celestial class being I think it would be OK to use invisibility to sneak around to grab something or even attack from the rear. Cowardly? You betcha! But it's very unlikely such a maneuver would kill them (assuming they can't just see through the invisibility). Anyway, who says that in a superhero game you have to adhere to a knight's Code of Honor? There is such a thing as an Anti-hero, after all. And some players might feel compelled to play in the style of Punisher or Wolverine, rather than play the role model boyscout like Superman.

Quoting: Igor Savin
What combat options there should be? Plan&simple attack - of course. Using superpowers (similar to spells? any other implementation suggestions?).

Yes and yes.

And how about an optional "Target Analyzer" device and/or Talent (power) that would allow the user to get detailed info, such as possible weakness(es)?

Also, if the party travels together as 1 icon (instead of separately like in GH1/GH2), I think a "Formation" option should be available. Depending on the strategy and formation of opponent(s), it could have an impact. Or, perhaps it's merely a matter of determining who's in front (taking the brunt of the damage) and who's in back (dishing it out with psionics and "ranged" weapons).

Also, perhaps there are some temporary boost effects that can be engaged before actual combat? You know, like taking a strength-boost drug/drink or powering up your force field (which slowly depletes the batteries unless switched off). Such things are forms of strategy.

Quoting: Igor Savin
Should there be rest, defend or protect others options (I wonder if anyone ever uses those)? Should I add "Tactics" settings (aggressive\defensive) for modifier adjustment? Anything else?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. All good ideas. And I am one of those players who use such options.

BTW: The aggressive\defensive adjustment could be like slider. Perhaps it can range from -5 (fully aggressive) to +5 (fully defensive)?

Other options might be things like "Communications" to send a message or look through your Hyperspace Email. Also, I think we need "Skills" and some other things like in GH1. I see a need to apply certain skills such as First Aid and Medicine (to apply Med-kits or treat poison or disease), and maybe things like "Analyze Xenotech" to study alien stuff and "Improvise" to do a McGuyver thing in utilizing junk/chemicals to make something useful.

To be honest, I've grown fond of the variety of numerous Traits and Skills available in GH1. There's just so many different, interesting things one can do outside combat and it can really affect play style.

Offline Igor Savin

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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2009, 04:42:57 AM »
/Though, it might have it's limits in a rogue-like game/

Golem engine is *very* different from average rogue-like :-P. You'll see.


/How would this "pre-phase skirmish" work? Is it like getting in real close (in-your-face)and then being allowed an opening salvo before the actual fight?/

Once-a-battle self-buff, enemy-curse, damage infliction phase (based on skills\equipment). Enemy would be doing the same; consider it an "opening ceremony".


/I can't see how ranged combat could be avoided/

It's not avoided, it's just treated in similar way melee does (except for additional strategical options like skirmish).


/ Anyway, who says that in a superhero game you have to adhere to a knight's Code of Honor?/

It's not the code of honour which troubles me. It's just that terrain-cover seeking, shooter-chasing\melee-evading gameplay don't give the right feeling to me. It belongs to Gearhead Mecha, not here.


/how about an optional "Target Analyzer" device and/or Talent (power) that would allow the user to get detailed info, such as possible weakness(es)?/

Will be done.


I will consider the formations :).



/To be honest, I've grown fond of the variety of numerous Traits and Skills available in GH1. There's just so many different, interesting things one can do outside combat and it can really affect play style/

Aye, I hear you! Those are A MUST.