Game Idea: LSH-Inspired Tactics RPG

[Joseph Hewitt]

This weekend I was thinking about the Fatal Five, and how GearHead needs more interesting enemies, when I came up with a great idea. You know what would really rock? A Legion of Super Heroes-inspired tactics RPG.

For those not familiar with the comic, the Legion of Super Heroes is a team of superheroes (duh) from the far future of the DC universe. Now, obviously I wouldn't want to make an actual LSH game- even ignoring the copyright issues, trying to keep the continuity straight would be harder than explaining Hawkman's origins (all of them) in 50 words or less. However, the concept of a scifi superheroic RPG has potential.

The PC would begin with a small team of heroes (3 members?) located on Earth. These heroes may be moved around the star-map to investigate and counter threats, such as super-villains, monsters, or evil star-gods. Game time is measured in an arbitrary scifi time unit roughly equivalent to seven Earth days, which we will call a "week". During a week the heroes can be moved around, can have adventures on whatever planet they're on, and so forth. Completing adventures earns rewards which can be used to recruit new members, upgrade equipment, and whatever else.

The way I imagined it, each planet would be presented very simply: just a background graphic and a menu, as in many Japanese tactics RPGs (like Disgaea). Combat will take place on a fully destructible map board. A planet would have various stats: population, type, atmosphere... Certain planets might amplify or hinder certain power types. On a certain world psi power might be twice as effective as elsewhere; on another world it might not function at all.

There will be more than one threat active in the galaxy at any given time, so you'll want to split your forces. The basic spaceship can carry three heroes. A threat which is ignored for too long will increase (planet conquered by villain/eaten by monster, etc).

The personality of your recruits might also come into play. Unlike GearHead where a character's personality is described by several sliding scales, in this game I think it would be best to just use a one-word character description like "headstrong" or "compassionate". Certain character types may be described as negative- these give the character extra starting power points, but may cause a problem later on. For instance, a "loner" character might fail to show up at an important battle. Generally, a character will only suffer this sort of problem once, after which they've learned their lesson.

Characters can be friendly or hostile to each other. If a character has friends acting in the same combat, they will get bonuses. If a character has a lover in the same combat, this bonus will be increased. Obviously, you would want to get as many friendship links as possible between your characters. Having one character with multiple lovers, though, will likely lead to trouble (causing the two ends of the triangle to hate one another). RNG help you if the androgynous proto-being seduces everyone on your team.

You should give each member some standard equipment, possibly in the form of a utility belt (can't very well use a ring, can we?). Standard abilities might include life support (why did Telus have to wear a helmet when the flight rings gave everyone else life support in all environments?), force fields, flight, communications, a basic weapon, scanners, et cetera. This equipment can be upgraded as you earn rewards but it should be the same for all members.

Non-combat powers may be important for investigation (allowing you to stop a villain before they act, or gain useful information about the villain), transportation (instantaneous galactic teleportation or dimensional travel would be useful).

The ending of the game would be a battle against a truly overpowered threat. This brings me to another point- in many cases, it should be possible to defeat certain enemies without necessarily defeating them in combat. This would require setting up goals for the enemy and allowing the player to frustrate those goals. Either that or you can throw them through the chaos vortex that they opened. I'm reminded of Roger Ebert's description of the X-Men, that they're like a game of chess where each piece plays by different rules. Selecting the right team to face off against a given villain should be an important part of the game.

If anyone were to develop this game I'd love to play it. Sounds like a lot of fun.

[SharkD]

That sounds awesome! If you've never tried it, you should play Freedom Force (though it's real-time like Baldur's Gate instead of turn-based, and there's no roaming the map). It's a kind of comic parody of golden age-era comics (i.e. Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, etc.). Great game!

[edit]
I couldn't get the hotlink to work, so here's the full URL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Force_(comput    er_game)

[edit2]
Damnit! This forum software sucks!

-Mike

[xpace]

Yes, it is cool idea.
However, if you start something like this, I really hope such a project doesn't detract from finishing GH2.

Also... what SharkD said.
Freedom Force is really an awesome game! And, so is it's sequel: Freedom Force vs The 3rd Reich! (SharkD's link for FF was broken, though. Try this one.)

Actually, what really makes both FF and FFvTR shine are the fan-created mods. In particular, the FFX Squared add-on which adds dozens and dozens of new superpowers, flaws and traits to choose from - many of which can be customized in depth. Then there are literally dozens of full conversion mods. Some simply have a couple missions. But many have 10 or more missions, making for an entirely new game and experience. And finally, there are many thousands (yes, really!) of fan-created superhero skins and meshes so players can choose nearly any superhero or super-villain they've ever heard of - even obscure ones and costume variants and totally new heroes/critters. Actually, I have several gigabytes of downloaded mods and skins/meshes. And I'm still finding new skins and meshes I missed.

For that matter, Disgaea is awesome too - in it's own, twisted way. Though, Disgaea would have been more fun if it didn't take forever to level up and explore your weapons!

Obviously I'm a fan of RPGs and Tactical RPGs in particular. I loved Final Fantasy Tactics and Disgaea. And I recently started to appreciate Front Mission. I'm actually kinda sad that nearly all new games go the real-time 3D route with fancy graphics and I feel that gameplay is so much more important. I don't believe a Tactical RPG Superhero game has been done before, so it looks like you'd be breaking new ground.

The kind of Superhero game that allows full character customization really interests me. And one reason is because they seem so rare. The only ones that come to mind include Freedom Force, City of Heroes MMORPG, and the new Champions MMORPG.

Usually, superhero games are very, very limited on what the player is allowed - and that's always a huge turn-off for me. The plot is fixed, the villains are fixed, the hero(s) are fixed, the setting is fixed - heck, even the path of game progression is usually fixed! It makes replay value almost nilch.

The only superhero game of that sort that held my attention enough for a reply was Justice League Heroes (PS2) and that was because: 1) It was pretty fun playing with friends in multiplayer and 2) there were enough witty superhero comebacks, powerups, moves to unlock, and hidden characters to unlock to make it worth my while.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: These are the sort of game elements I like in a superhero game. (Ditto on the dislikes.) But if I had to choose one element as most important, for me it would be character customization - hands down. In most RPGs the most important factor for me is item or weapon customization. But when playing a superhero, frequently, you are your weapon.

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

The PC would begin with a small team of heroes (3 members?) located on Earth. These heroes may be moved around the star-map to investigate and counter threats, such as super-villains, monsters, or evil star-gods. Game time is measured in an arbitrary scifi time unit roughly equivalent to seven Earth days, which we will call a "week". During a week the heroes can be moved around, can have adventures on whatever planet they're on, and so forth. Completing adventures earns rewards which can be used to recruit new members, upgrade equipment, and whatever else.

Hmm... So far, aside from the heroes not having superhuman powers, it sounds vaguely reminiscent of games like Cyber Knight I & II (see also here) (SNES), Starflight (PC DOS, Tandy, Sega Genesis, Amiga, Atari ST, Macintosh & Commodore 64), Starflight 2 (PC DOS), and Iron Seed (PC DOS).

As for mission rewards, it could vary. It could be cash, an item of certain value and rarity, a treasure map, some sort of free service, a new recruit, etc. And every successful mission should give more Renowned, which allows for more dangerous missions, recruiting more or better team mates and other perks.

Why start with 3 members though? I suppose running a starship might require a crew of more than 1 or 2. But then, I think a single character could either pay for passage aboard a starliner or hitch a ride... until they obtain their own ship (purchase, gift, or salvage) and crew (either recruited, hired, or built) later in the game.

BTW: If you must fight monsters and/or evil star-gods, then why not also give players the opportunity to tame a monster as a pet or even befriend a friendly star-god? For that matter, perhaps the player could also choose a weak, level 1 demi-god as a starting character? If balanced for gameplay, he'd be much like a regular superhuman - merely with unusual origins and parentage.

Also, one of the aspects of Well of Souls (PC) that I found most entertaining was the ability to tame any monster you encounter (provided you're high enough level) and raise it as your pet. You could even feed it your discarded weapons and armor to make it stronger. It was also a very entertaining part of Legend of Mana (PS1).

The way I see it, superhuman powers in a sci-fi setting can come from a variety of sources:

* Metahuman genes (The natural, inherited way)
* DNA Experiment ("Gene-splicing, for a better tomorrow?")
* Super Soldier Formula (Transhumanism through chemistry)
* Esper (Natural powerhouse of the mind, unlocked due to trauma)
* Esper Experiment (Formerly weak psionics, artificially stimulated - ala, Spriggan)
* Ancient or alien magic (Do you believe in magic?)
* Alien DNA (Alien parent(s)? Or government experiment?)
* Gadgeteer (Man of a thousand toys - ala, James Bond, Batman, or Technomages in B5)
* Cyborg (Man... or machine? - ala Robocop, or Inspector Gadget)
* Robot (I think, therefore I am)
* Demi-god (Half god!)
* Peek of Human Perfection (Perfect physique & expert training - ala, Batman)

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

If anyone were to develop this game I'd love to play it. Sounds like a lot of fun.

It does. But I'd say a lot depends on how it was implemented. For instance, how big is the explorable area on each planet? If it's only one small dungeon-size map, it would seem done a bit 'cheap' to me. (Though, I realize making unique maps for each planet would be hugely time consuming.) Instead, I hope each planet could have one of several (but colorful) background images with the menu of choices and then the terrain would be randomly generated. The background image and menu thing was a popular way to do the planet hopping thing with old DOS games like MechWarrior and Wing Commander: Privateer.

Also, one of the aspects of Disgaea (and, to a lesser extent, other Tactical RPGs like FF: Tactics and Front Mission) that I find most alluring is the variety of awesome combat moves. That is, the animations. But developing fancy combat animations would probably take serious time and talent - unless they could be borrowed (with permission) from another opensource game.

That said, one feature that is sure to make nearly any game more fun is online muliplayer capability.

[Vair]

Quoting: xpace

The way I see it, superhuman powers in a sci-fi setting can come from a variety of sources:

It can come from almost any relatively sane source one can think of. Including fantasy ones. It's not that just because it's sci-fi setting, occult powers, forces from beyond, demons of another dimensions or of human mind cannot exist.

As for idea itself: Well, why not, if it will be nicely done. Just please, not Star-Gods. I believe no mech should be able to take on something that was called a god by anyone who isn't gullible and/or primitive.

Also, GH comes first for me. I am a bit worried of the negative impact it will have on a game, when what time is already spent on it will be divided to make something else. And it's not only a matter of time - sometimes when one starts thinking about doing a couple of things, ultimately he makes no real progress in any.

[Igor Savin]

Damn you, Joseph! I've been silently working under the rock on my ubersecret project, but this idea is just too tempting.

Looks like I'll have to branch out my efforts...

So, guys, please keep your ideas flowing - I'll be assembling something of alpha quality ASAP.

Although I don't currently consider anything of a truly epic scope - expect a coffee-break stuff for a time being. Yet it gives a chance of something being actually completed...

And no graphics. Sorry.

[Igor Savin]

I need some preliminary feedback to adjust my engine accordingly.


1) What kind of damage system do you think would work better? Generic HP? Bodypart-based HP? Something else?

2) What should be the main focus of combat tactics? Superpower usage? Pre-combat resource managing (e. g. choosing the reight man for the job with appropriate equipment)? Positioning?

3) How detailed should the armour system be? Full (GH-style) with separate leggings\sleeves\helmets, or "united" (X-COM style)?

[Phil Munoz]

1:  Bodypart-based HP, if possible, stats are linked to specific bodypart health.

2: Combat tactics.  I always imagined a game where a bunch of well-trained heroes with underwhelming superpowers, use superior tactics and teamwork against a vastly stronger but somewhat dumb villain.

3: Full, because I also suggested the bodypart-based HP.

If you're going with a generic hp, then use x-com style armor.

My idea contribution is, instead of using all superpowered superhero-types, I was thinking of using elite normal humans... to give an example: Batman.  The guy has no superpower, but is a good fighter and has a good brain.  Now, Imagine a team of Batman-types fighting against a supervillain with overwhelming power.  The need for tactics would really arise, then, instead of a straight-forward let's-see-who-hits-harder brawl.

anyway, to summarize, include a bunch of normal guys plus a couple of special guys.

[Igor Savin]

1) Currently stats are linked to Pain bodypart attribute; seems appropriate to keep it that way.

2) Combat tactics include all the items listed . Question was, mostly, what they should primarily consist of. On which area should I concentrate the most to provide as many options as possible...

3) OK, then I'm leaving this one uncrippled too.


"instead of using all superpowered superhero-types, I was thinking of using elite normal humans"

I liked the idea above - of different power sources. Those will act as traditional "classes".

Batmans can make the most common one, though.

[Erathoniel]

Quoting: Igor Savin

What kind of damage system do you think would work better? Generic HP? Bodypart-based HP? Something else?

Body-part/total compound. Basically every part can take so much damage before failing, and each character can take so much damage, less than the sum of their limbs, before dying. Look at Privateer: ASCII Sector's ground combat, it's pretty good. GearHead too, for that matter, uses a fairly decent system.

Quoting: Igor Savin

How detailed should the armour system be? Full (GH-style) with separate leggings\sleeves\helmets, or "united" (X-COM style)?

I'd say that individual armor parts work better, since that way you can have the armored parts separate from less important parts that will be armored for less.

[EarthquakeDamage]

Quoting: Phil Munoz

2: Combat tactics. I always imagined a game where a bunch of well-trained heroes with underwhelming superpowers, use superior tactics and teamwork against a vastly stronger but somewhat dumb villain.

I'd rather pit a team of normal (read:  non-super) humans against a vastly stronger and very clever villain.  That would actually be challenging, as opposed to fighting a powerful idiot.

Quoting: Phil Munoz

Batman. The guy has no superpower

Actually, Batman is super rich.  He might also be super well-connected.  

Quoting: Erathoniel

Body-part/total compound. Basically every part can take so much damage before failing, and each character can take so much damage, less than the sum of their limbs, before dying.

This.

You could also throw in some combat penalties when you take damage, some (most?) of which wear off over time.  You may recover from a boot to the head in a matter of seconds or minutes, but being thrown to the ground several times (by some Judo master maybe?) might leave you worn out/sore for an hour(s), if not the rest of the mission.  That sort of thing.

That might tie in pretty well with a stamina system, actually.  Being tossed around would drop your stamina pretty fast, as would sprinting or just fighting in general.  It'd give you some incentive to avoid fighting, sneak attack enemies, and otherwise conserve your strength, too, since your stamina would typically decrease over the course of a mission.  Taking a five minute break to catch your breath or whatever would help, of course.  A stamina system would probably favor firearms over kung-fu, though, so maybe it's a terrible idea for a band of (not quite) superheroes.

Actually, that could be a good thing.  Instead of superheroes, you play ordinary people (if special forces or whatever can be considered ordinary).  The supervillain(s) managed to kill off all the actual superheroes so you're the city's/world's/whatever's last hope.

[SharkD]

Quoting: xpace

(SharkD's link for FF was broken, though. Try this one.)

Doesn't work either.

Quoting: EarthquakeDamage

Actually, Batman is super rich. He might also be super well-connected.

lawl

Quoting: EarthquakeDamage

You could also throw in some combat penalties when you take damage, some (most?) of which wear off over time. You may recover from a boot to the head in a matter of seconds or minutes, but being thrown to the ground several times (by some Judo master maybe?) might leave you worn out/sore for an hour(s), if not the rest of the mission. That sort of thing.

Some superheroes could of course be immune to melee damage.

[SharkD]

Quoting: Igor Savin

1) What kind of damage system do you think would work better? Generic HP? Bodypart-based HP? Something else?

2) What should be the main focus of combat tactics? Superpower usage? Pre-combat resource managing (e. g. choosing the reight man for the job with appropriate equipment)? Positioning?

3) How detailed should the armour system be? Full (GH-style) with separate leggings\sleeves\helmets, or "united" (X-COM style)?

A level of equipment detail on par with D&D would be nice. Same with superpowers (i.e. spells) and melee. Locational damage/armor is OK too, though it doesn't need to be quite as detailed as GH.

Maybe there's an existing PnP rule system that is free to use?

[Phil Munoz]

D&D's armor system is too simplistic, IMHO.

I think separate armors for separate body parts would be enough.  Some armor may provide some protection for other parts, too.

For example, a long coat of maille armor may provide AC +5 to the torso, and an additional +1 to arms and +1 to legs, too.

Or you can have multiple armor slots for the same body part.

Let's say the body parts are only separated to Head, Torso, R-arm, L-arm, Legs.

but armor slots are: Helmet, Body, belt, cape(MUST HAVE!), shoulder, bracers, gloves, leggings, greaves, boots.

[Erathoniel]

Quoting: SharkD

A level of equipment detail on par with D&D would be nice. Same with superpowers (i.e. spells) and melee. Locational damage/armor is OK too, though it doesn't need to be quite as detailed as GH.

Maybe there's an existing PnP rule system that is free to use?

The d20 system (D&D) is actually free to use. You can't reference it as D&D, but it's free to use with attribution.

d20 Modern could be an useful stepping stone, and it's free too.

[SharkD]

Quoting: Phil Munoz

D&D's armor system is too simplistic, IMHO.

Well, I meant that in regards to the number and types of equipment you can put on, not their effects on AC.

Here's a list of superhero RPG-related topics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Superhero_ro  le-playing_games

Not sure if there's anything in there that's relevant or usable, though the Hero System looks like it might work.