Author Topic: GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment  (Read 5598 times)

Offline Phil Munoz

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2009, 06:54:23 AM »
\"gearhead

This is how I textured it.  it's very crudely done so maybe something went very wrong.  Also, it might be because of the software we use for 3D objects are different.  Currently, I'm using Wings3D.

For a bit of 3d modeling exercise, here's my shot at a wraith.

\"gearhead

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
Part of me is thinking "Cool!" and part of me is thinking "Down that path lies madness". On the one hand this would be a great idea. On the other hand, given the amount of customization possible in GearHead, it would be extremely difficult to do well. If weapons appear on the models, and limbs can appear damaged, the next step would be to build the mecha model from limbs and show all customization. What is the computer supposed to do when someone builds a monstrosity with a Dora body and seventeen legs, no two of which are from the same design?


for that, we would probably go the route of Spore in terms of customization.  I think that's being too ambitious right now.  I think we should first try rigging meshes to a skeleton so we can try some simple animations.

I'm no good at rigging, though.  All I can do is static meshes.

For NPC's, I think it would be safe to just set them to a default mesh that would display for them regardless of what they are wearing.

Offline Snakebit STI

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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2009, 07:42:17 AM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
Down that path lies madness

Indeed! A stopping point can be decided on, of course. At simplest, I'd say just use the 3d meshes and have armor add-ons for them. When a piece of armor or a limb is destroyed, it disappears. In the case of many-limbed mecha, the legs on the model count as the second to last and last legs left on the mecha.
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
What is the computer supposed to do when someone builds a monstrosity with a Dora body and seventeen legs, no two of which are from the same design?

I don't know how to make rendering a 17 leg mecha possible, but I can think of a couple ways to make it so that you can't create an impossible mecha. The simplest is to add a hard limit on the number of limbs of type x for each body module. Bigger body: more limbs.
From here on out, I'm going to go a little overboard, so that my ideas can be polished down into a nice game mechanic.
Require legs to be linked to something before putting them on a body.
My thought is that you add a left and right leg together and get a '2L chassis'. I know chassis isn't quite the right word, but 'leg thing' isn't any better. Two 2L chassis put together is a 4L chassis. Add a 4L chassis to a body and this is the result:
[edit 'cause it removed my indentation]
>body
-->4L chassis
---->front left leg
---->front right leg
---->rear left leg
---->rear right leg
This gets rid of the issue of having to figure out where to put the 17th limb.
Putting this together with a hard limit on limbs means that each body has x many arm mounting points (perhaps these are hidden, mass-less modules that only appear on the arm install list?) and 1 chassis mount (likewise 'not there'). The chassis itself would have no mass or DP, so game mechanics aren't really affected. It just takes several more Mecha Engineering roles to add extra legs, which is perhaps desirable. Taking things even further, classify legs as 2L, 4L, 6L, etc. An nL leg can be put on any chassis that is <=nL. The lighter/slimmer the leg, the higher the nL value. I'm a little unsure of this last bit. Perhaps 2L legs would be special cases?
At any rate, having set arm mounting points would make it easier to add arms onto the 3d models, since the code doesn't have to calculate where the arms should go, we won't wind up with arms floating in space.
How does the free hand requirement for larger mecha weapons work? Arm mounting points could be rather neat for this if the player gets to decide which mounting point to attach an arm to. You can have one left arm with a shield and three right arms, each holding a railgun, for example. None of the railguns get penalized for not having a free hand.
tl;dr?

Offline Phil Munoz

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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2009, 08:18:08 AM »
I have an idea for a much simpler way to limit limbs - make them cost complexity points.  The main module should always be the body, and any additional module would cost a number of slots relative to their size.  This would however, screw up the current status of complexity slots.

Offline Snakebit STI

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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2009, 10:18:57 AM »
Quoting: Phil Munoz
The main module should always be the body, and any additional module would cost a number of slots relative to their size. This would however, screw up the current status of complexity slots.

Make the first two arms and legs free (or whatever the base number of limbs for the body is), and have additional limbs cost slots.
For displaying legs, would making 2 leg, 4 leg, 6 leg, and 8 leg models be enough? A 3 leg mecha would have a 4 leg model with one leg missing.
I imagine one of the problems with rendering individual limbs is that you have to acknowledge how impossible some mecha designs are.

Offline SharkD

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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2009, 05:13:47 PM »
As for indicating speed:

you could simply increase the radius of the octagon/circle underneath the units.

Offline SharkD

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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2009, 05:19:32 PM »
I have some other ideas:

1. Instead of a black border around each grass tile, have a black dot in the middle like you have on the outer space maps.
2. Make the walls thin like some of the walls were in GH1. Not sure if you would need 16 different meshes per wall type.
3. Maybe add some type of indicator showing whose turn is next or something.

Offline Ladi

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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2009, 08:49:27 PM »
Quoting: SharkD
We could steal 3D models from other open source projects


I hesitate to outright take models from other games.  I could definitely see people from those projects crying foul if we were to do that, about as much as I would if I found another project that was using any of the Gearhead portraits that I've made.  Using those models as a starting point doesn't sound too bad though.  Just find ones that fit in with what we need and make appropriate adjustments to them.  I'm not too sure of how 3D modeling works, but having to adjust an existing model would take less time and effort, right?  (What software should be used by the way?  I'd like to try a bit of 3D myself.)

I like the way the current models look.  Mecha understandably look better rendered in 3D.  For the sake of everything meshing up, I suppose people and creatures should also be rendered in 3D.  So much for the male and female sprite templates I worked on I suppose :P  

Other nitpicky things I can think of is making the gridlines somewhat less noticeable.  Making the lines lighter or having an option to turn the grid off would be nice.  I want to spiffy up the menus too :D  And this is more of a note to myself, but, the portraits I drew that other people colored should probably be taken out and redone.

Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
BTW, why haven't your sisters forced you to join facebook and provide support in Mafia Wars yet?

 
Knowing my brother, he's doing the exact same thing my husband is doing;  too busy playing video games and checking message boards to try online social networking :P  And I'm not home anymore, so there's technically only my younger sister that's currently nagging him.  I will be sure to send him a highly annoying email about it later though.

Offline Snakebit STI

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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2009, 10:16:02 PM »
Quoting: Ladi
I hesitate to outright take models from other games.

So don't steal: If anything, ask permission, then give credit (origin and creator of the model).

Quoting: SharkD
As for indicating speed:
you could simply increase the radius of the octagon/circle underneath the units.

Add a directional arrow and voila: vector quantity. No more getting blindsided by a charge during your turn because you didn't realize the enemy mecha was drifting towards you (or maybe that's just me (but I did dodge it))

Offline Vair

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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2009, 10:53:40 PM »
Quoting: Snakebit STI
Make the first two arms and legs free (or whatever the base number of limbs for the body is)


0 limbs. I mean, you can make very, very basic but useful mecha by making a body and adding CPit, engine, some jets and a weapon. If someone wants to build something more, it's his task to get his skill slightly above a minimum.

As for taking models from other games - I don't see that much of a reason as long as someone wants to make original ones for GH. It's not that we need to rush things and graphic needs to be changed suddenly in one quick go. We can as well just wait till enough of good-quality materials will be made or just add things slowly as they show up. It will also allow anyone who will make a model to take more time at improving it.

As much as I would gladly play greatly looking GH quickly, current graphic isn't that bad to need immediate change - I'd rather see improvement of the game world, new possibilities for players and greater complexity of NPCs. If additionally, this will provide time for someone who would release crude box with arms and legs to work some more till his project will become full-fledged mecha (Don't take me wrong, I do appreciate all work but I do know that most graphical things can be improved slightly if given more time) it's all the better.

Offline Snakebit STI

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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2009, 07:15:26 AM »
I agree: gameplay first. Of course, some elements of the graphics add to gamepla, such as being able to identify mecha by sight. Perhaps we should get at least a sketch of every mecha before we start making hi-res models of a few mecha?
Also, our limb discussion is getting off the topic of graphics: move to new thread?

Offline Phil Munoz

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« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2009, 07:38:08 AM »
Quoting: Ladi
(What software should be used by the way? I'd like to try a bit of 3D myself.)


If I'm not mistaken, some of gearhead's models were made with something like a freeware version of LegoCAD.  Also, I think I heard of Anim8or from gearhead, too.
Anim8or Website

Personally, I'm using Wings3D, because that is what is popularly used in Mount & Blade.  I also found a bunch of useful tutorials for complete beginners there.
Wings3D Website
Video Tutorials for Wings3D (from Mount & Blade forums)

For more serious 3D modeling, I think most people would recommend Blender or 3DSMax, but I have never tried either of those.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2009, 04:50:56 PM »
Quoting: Vair
As much as I would gladly play greatly looking GH quickly, current graphic isn't that bad to need immediate change

Well, that's why I think I should get a graphics programmer on board. There's no reason why we can't do both as once as long as it's not the same person doing everything.

Edit- For Lego modeling, I use LDraw: http://www.ldraw.org
I also use this when cartooning, if I need to set up a perspective shot. Here's the last page of Voles of the Dusk:

\"\"

I've also used this a bit in Mischa's Story, but not as much as I should have. When the time comes to print that story I'm going to have to fix up a lot of the backgrounds.

Offline SharkD

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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2009, 05:19:36 PM »
Lego is probably the easiest since it has tons of pre-made items (including figures of people). There are tools to create animations, too; but I don't have much experience with them.

[edit]
Also, the modeling software, while functional and sufficient for *just* modeling, is very old-fashioned and doesn't have all the bells and whistles you might be used to when previewing or setting up shots in Wings3D or Blender. Joseph had to use *at least* two separate tools in order to get that shot in his above post.

Offline Ladi

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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2009, 05:21:39 PM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
I also use this when cartooning, if I need to set up a perspective shot. Here's the last page of Voles of the Dusk


Wow, that's very interesting.  I never thought of setting up perspective shots that way.  I'll have to keep that in mind for later :)

Unfortunately, all this messing around in 3D has taught me one thing;  I really don't know what I'm doing when it comes to 3D modeling ;_;   I'd otherwise help out a great deal more, since I actually have a lot of free time now.  Oh well.  Back to drawing character portraits for me for the time being at least.

Offline SharkD

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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2009, 05:23:55 PM »
Quoting: Ladi
I could definitely see people from those projects crying foul if we were to do that, about as much as I would if I found another project that was using any of the Gearhead portraits that I've made.


We should clarify, then, what the license is for artistic content within the game. Because if they are LGPL as the rest of the game is, then there's no basis for complaint since people can do with them whatever they want to as long as they abide by the same license.

The same goes for artwork in other open source games: we'd have to check the licenses first before we could use them, though we wouldn't need permission first if the licenses are compatible.

That's the good/bad thing (take your pick) about open source.

-Mike