Author Topic: GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment  (Read 2862 times)

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« on: July 03, 2009, 05:46:56 AM »
Warning: This is going to be a long, rambling post because I want to sort through some ideas and get some feedback before writing a short, concise post later.

It's time to get serious about the graphics in GH2. This is a big issue- or, rather, a tangled collection of big issues all knotted together. I want the game to look as good as it possibly can, and to do this I'm definitely going to need outside help. Before I can get that help, though, I need to know what I'm asking for.

One of the issues that needs to be dealt with is graphics content. Currently the game uses a mix of 3D backgrounds with 2D sprites. If the 2D sprites were removed and replaced with 3D meshes, things would probably look much better. The down side is that then I'd need to get a whole lot of meshes (which would probably cost money*). If the 2D sprites could be made to look decent, it'd be so much easier to build up lots of content, but as mentioned there's probably no way to make this look as good as a fully 3D world.

The current sprites are 64x64 pixels and contain eight rotations of the model at an oblique angle. They don't work particularly well- the format was chosen just because that's the format used in GH1.

Today I decided to try an experiment: paper dolls. (This took about 20 minutes to complete, just to let you know.)

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Instead of a 64x64 sprite with multiple directions, this is a 128x128 sprite that's always viewed from the front. Direction (and later on, possibly speed as well) is indicated by the octagon at the model's base. Seeing everything from the front was a bit odd at first but I got used to it quickly. The increased sprite resolution looks good; the jaggies of the 64x64 sprites are mostly gone. It was harder to determine an enemy's facing from a distance, but this is a problem that can probably be fixed.

Why perform this experiment?  Just to see how it looks, mostly. Completely flat paper dolls like this represent one extreme in the spectrum of possibilities. They'd definitely be the easiest sort of graphics to add to the game. On the minus side, they're probably the most unnatural representational style that I could use without getting into abstract expressionism. Back on the plus side, they'd make it fairly easy to add a paper doll equipment system for the main character.

The important thing about the interface is to convey all the necessary information to the player, and to do it in a reasonably attractive manner. There are all kinds of trade-offs involved in deciding how it's going to work.

How many graphical elements does GearHead need? All the terrain, scenery, buildings and props need to be modeled. There must be at minimum 9 different mecha models (one for each form), though ideally each mecha should have its own model (though similar designs such as the BuruBuru and Daum might be able to get away with having different skins on the same mesh). There should be at least 28 character images (14 job categories, male and female of each) and I don't know how many monsters.

*I'm not against spending money on GearHead, but if I were to do this I'd want to earn back at least some of the investment, and monetizing the game sounds like a giant pain in the arse. As much as I'd love to see GearHead with higher production values my main reason for working on this project is that it's the opposite of a pain in the arse... let's just drop that metaphor here.

Offline SharkD

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2009, 04:29:33 PM »
Neat. It *looks* nice.

How are the camera controls? Can you pan/rotate/zoom?

Offline EarthquakeDamage

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 03:03:58 AM »
With 3D, all you need are clear enough models to see what's going on at a glance.  As it stands, it can be hard to determine the facing of some mecha (without zooming way in).  You don't need to go overboard, though, since there are plenty of games out there with fancy graphics (retail mostly, like Oblivion or whatever).  If you're into roguelikes, you probably don't demand an immersive 3D environment with top-notch graphics.

Also, if you insist on having the prettiest game possible, don't rule out 2D.  I generally prefer slick 2D graphics to mediocre/poor 3D.

Offline Daemonward

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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2009, 09:51:06 AM »
The drawn 2D sprites do look good.

Could the sprites at least be flipped to improve the general perception of facing/direction of movement?

How would this work on spinner colonies and asteroids with the various terrain objects and altitudes?

Maybe it could be combined with the Super Deformed "Cute" interface in some way?

Offline Skulkraken

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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2009, 04:18:01 PM »
If you're in need of help with the graphics, you could always try asking around on art sites.  Places like Pixelation and Pixeljoint have dedicated areas for people who are in need of game art, both 2d and 3d.

Offline clasic_traveller_diehard

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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2009, 11:25:58 PM »
I'm no pro but I have time to help with either 2d or 3d graphics until the end of august. after that I'm going to be serving a religious mission and as a result drop of the face of the internet for 2 years.

Offline Phil Munoz

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 11:49:47 PM »
regarding graphics, I think 2D sprites on a 3D background is good enough for gearhead.  A lot of good games are like that, such as Disgaea.  I think the odd oblique angle is forgivable.

I agree that we could probably use higher res sprites for gh2.  If it's possible, maybe we can use vector graphics instead?

If gearhead wants to go fully 3D, i would probably want to play it something like armored core.  There's something about pushing your luck with a Vespa against a decent SF:2 mecha in real time that really appeals to me.

Offline Vair

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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 01:31:51 AM »
A couple of my thoughts about the experiment as well as GH graphic improvement in general - I humbly warn you, potential reader.

2D sprites on 3D background can indeed look nice but I think that making sprites face only user would ruin the impression quite much. So, considering how much work would need to be done for (yes, still just in my opinion) that to look neat - making version of every sprite facing at least around 8 directions (From 'North', going clockwise through 'North-East' up to 'North-West') I'll be happy with leaving it as it is. Many models (especially mecha ones) don't look that bad anyway, you know.

Also, if in far far future someone will like to make an actual animation of objects in game (units walking and shooting, for example) - models will need less work for their animation to look decent while sprites will require a lot frame-by-frame drawing.

What I would like to see that would really improve graphic isn't necessarily changing of what we already have here into something else, but improving those details and things that aren't really visible - backgrounds (space background is really simple, more nebulaes visible from time to time would be really nice) and objects in locations (dungeons/cities look usually too clean).

Another thing, which may be somewhat unpleasant as it would make one wonder what to do with portion of already created materials is deciding upon consistency of theme. For example, I do like quality of all except of several portraits, yet putting together a couple of vastly different styles bothers me somewhat and leaves noticeably worse impression than one set would. Another downside of such idea would be the chosen graphic-makers to work quite much to make for what would go out and sometimes they probably would need to create things they don't want to (for example, I must say I like Ladene Kosaka's portraits very much but I get an impression she isn't overly fond of drawing anyone outside of 15-30 age group).. tho I still believe that in the end, it would be worth it.

Offline SharkD

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 08:34:21 AM »
Quoting: Daemonward
Could the sprites at least be flipped to improve the general perception of facing/direction of movement?

I would recommend not doing this.

Offline Daemonward

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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 10:27:33 AM »
Quoting: SharkD
I would recommend not doing this.


To clarify, I meant that if they are heading/facing to the right of the viewer, the sprites could be flipped to face in that direction, making the graphics more visually intuitive.

Offline SharkD

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2009, 03:19:44 AM »
Quoting: Daemonward
To clarify, I meant that if they are heading/facing to the right of the viewer, the sprites could be flipped to face in that direction, making the graphics more visually intuitive.

I realize that. I just think that if icons are going to be used then they should remain always the same. Having them turn to face directions just draws attention to the fact that a more advanced solution was rejected. The existing direction indicater is not as distracting.

One thing I'd like to see is mini-icons overlayed on the sprites representing status effects, weapon types, etc. There could be one for pilot-less mecha as well as damage.

Offline Ladi

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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2009, 09:26:12 PM »
\"\"

Sprites something like this, maybe?  I'm not exactly a sprite artist, but I tried >_>

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 06:27:28 AM »
Good comments, everybody. No time to reply to everything intelligently tonight because it's been a hot day, Sean went to bed late, and I think I'm running out of cerebrospinal fluid. I hate when that happens.

Earlier today, I did manage to try this, though:

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At 128px, these sprites look pretty good. Wouldn't it be very labor-intensive to make all the sprites this way, though?

Offline Phil Munoz

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 07:17:27 AM »
The sprites may be a bit labor intensive, but so far, since there are only 8 frames to a sprite, it should not be as intensive as other projects.

I think we can probably settle on a template sprite for male and female, then just change the clothes a bit and we should have a lot of sprites to work with.

Offline Francisco Munoz

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GH2: Graphics Content and New Experiment
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 12:40:20 PM »
A paperdoll system (or just some head swap) will be really nice... there is a lot of bald or bearded NPCs portraits