Author Topic: Ripping the Guts from the Beast  (Read 4421 times)

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Ripping the Guts from the Beast
« on: March 14, 2009, 04:09:12 AM »
I am now mid-way through the skill/talent reduction in GH2. So far it compiles up to the effects unit. I'm taking the opportunity to refamiliarize myself with everything in the code, and to remove any magic numbers I come across.

If all goes well the game should be compilable again by sometime next week.

Offline macksting

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 11:42:03 AM »
I suspect I shall miss some of these guts. I'll get by. There's always GH1, right?
I'm curious, though. Is this operation irreversible? Could both versions be kept updated?

Offline Onisuzume

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 11:57:29 AM »
Yeah, GH1 could really use an update.
Especially if it brings GH1 more in line the things in GH2, like ammunition calibers, high performance engines, reflex systems, etc.

Most of it should be pretty much a "copy&paste" matter, right?

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 07:55:50 PM »
Quoting: macksting
I'm curious, though. Is this operation irreversible?

Not really. Don't worry too much, no effects are actually being removed from the game- some skills/talents are getting folded together, but it will all still be there. If, after playing the new version, it is generally decided that the changes were a bad idea then the only recourse will be to revert back to an earlier source version.

I've decided to go with the hidden skill mechanism for Athletics/Concentration/Vitality- the skills are there, they're known by all characters, but the only way to improve them now is through use. There's a separate skill called Toughness which takes over the function of Resistance and also provides a small HP bonus (half that of Vitality), so if you want a character with lots of HP out of the gate that option is still open.

When the new version is released, there will be bugs. I used magic numbers for skill/talent indicies far too much in the source code, when I should have been using named constants. The newer sections (where I do use named constants) have been a breeze to convert. The older areas have been kind of messy. It's almost inevitable that I've missed some magic numbers (which will now correspond to different, or possibly even nonexistant, skills) and maybe some archaic strangeness (skill rolls made with RollStep(SkillValue) instead of the SkillRoll function, for instance).

Since I want to get the program running again as soon as possible, I've commented out any sections that are going to need major work. So far the only things that needed to be commented out have been PC repair and cyberdisfunction. I'll get those back in working order once everything else compiles.

Quoting: Onisuzume
Most of it should be pretty much a "copy&paste" matter, right?

It depends. Some things certainly could be, while others would likely cause problems.

ETA- Once I got past the "deep" units, everything else went far more smoothly than expected. The program now compiles smoothly. All that's left to do is reactivate the bits which were commented out and to update the data files.

I've been having second thoughts over one of the deleted skills- Flirtation. What's my interplanetary gigolo going to do now? For the time being all previous uses of Flirtation in the series files have been converted to Conversation. I'm not entirely sure what to do about the dancing application of the skill...

Anyhow, let me tell you about some ideas for reworking the rumor system. As part of this skill reduction I want to remove Conversation from the mandatory skill list and instead make it something that diplomats and negotiators will specialize in. How about if instead of always using Conversation when seeking rumors, a random information-gathering tactic were chosen based on the PC's skills? Depending on what the PC knows, the tactic could be Conversation (works pretty much as now), Intimidation (scare NPCs into revealing stuff), Shopping (a short dialog will come up in which the PC can bribe the NPC for rumors), Insight (the PC will ask probing questions), et cetera... The differences between most of these methods would be mostly cosmetic, unless there were a price to the tactic in which case it would generate more rumors than usual.

Another change would be that once heard, a rumor would be removed from the rumor list and added to a memo list. Not the main memo list, but probably a new memo type.

Offline macksting

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 01:36:32 AM »
Ah! Athletics, Concentration, etc. can still be increased by use! That's my primary concern, really. I'm so easy to please sometimes.

Offline Onisuzume

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 03:07:16 AM »
I've been having second thoughts over one of the deleted skills- Flirtation. What's my interplanetary gigolo going to do now? For the time being all previous uses of Flirtation in the series files have been converted to Conversation. I'm not entirely sure what to do about the dancing application of the skill...

In that case, keep it in.
A lot of my characters started with ranks in flirtation coupled with the bishoujo talent.
It depends. Some things certainly could be, while others would likely cause problems.

Thought that'd be something like that.
But at least its good to know that some things can be added that easily.
And now for the obvious question: which things? ^_^

Offline Ephafn

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 07:33:48 AM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt

I've been having second thoughts over one of the deleted skills- Flirtation. What's my interplanetary gigolo going to do now? For the time being all previous uses of Flirtation in the series files have been converted to Conversation. I'm not entirely sure what to do about the dancing application of the skill...


Isn't performance supposed to cover dancing?
Performance + Charm = Singing
Performance + Speed = Dancing
Performance + Craft = Sculpture
...

Personally, I'm happy to see Flirtation disappears as it and Acrobatic were the two worse offender of skill duplication.

Offline EarthquakeDamage

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 11:56:39 AM »
If skills are going to use different attributes for various situations, perhaps Flirtation could be changed to Conversation + Body (it kinda fits...  maybe...) while standard chatting/persuasion uses Conversation + Charm.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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Ripping the Guts from the Beast
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 01:17:19 AM »
Actually, what about Athletics + Charm? Dancing is a pretty small part of the game but one which just about everybody could potentially need, all characters have Athletics and it should roughly scale with their advancement, and this particular combo wouldn't seem completely random when you notice it in the skill roll history.

Today I finished editing the series files. In theory, the game should now be playable, but there are several things which still won't work. I think repair may be among them; better check that out. In any case all the things that are needed for making a character and starting a campaign are in place... oh, except for Robotics, Acrobatics, and Dominate Animal which need to be re-added as talents.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 01:56:25 AM »
I am now back to where I started- everything that worked before has been reactivated, and all of the support files have been updated. Normally this would be a good time to make a test release but there are a few more savefile-breaking changes I want to work in before doing that.

Currently the stat used by a weapon is determined automatically, but I want to add an option to change it. I'm also thinking of bringing back the maximum magazine size from GH1- currently magazines have a size, but any weapon can accept any magazine of the proper caliber.

There are currently two kinds of armor: regular and hardened. I want to change hardened from an intrinsic to an armor property, and add several other types.

Since stats are no longer tied to skills, the old stat training model is out the window. I'm thinking of a system whereby you get a number of stat advances (which may be spent on any stat) based on either your highest skill rank or your experience total (so stat advancements unlock with experience, like talents but far more common). As of right now you can freely spend XP on your skills like stats. Maybe it's not a bad idea to leave things as-is, and just change the formula for XP costs.

I want to add some fairly powerful talents for Mysticism and Insight- currently they're the only two mostly-quest-based skills which don't get a kick-ass talent. For Mysticism I'm thinking of a meditation/focus talent where once a day you can concentrate on a skill or stat and get a temporary bonus. The size of the bonus would be determined by your Mysticism rank, and its duration would be based on your Spirituality score.

How does the game work with these changes? I haven't played it much yet, so it's hard to say... so far it kind of feels like GearHead2 from an alternate universe. I like the skill reduction- it makes character creation more interesting, since it's easier to form a strong concept and there are fewer redundant/boring skills to bulk up on.

Offline Ephafn

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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 05:58:20 AM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
I want to add some fairly powerful talents for Mysticism and Insight- currently they're the only two mostly-quest-based skills which don't get a kick-ass talent.


I hope you won't make these two talents too kick-ass, otherwise the talents will become more or less mandatory for making the related skill useful.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 06:47:42 AM »
Alright, make that "sufficiently kick-ass" then. So far Science gets Robotics and Survival gets Dominate Animal. I'm thinking of changing Pick Pockets from Stealth to Code Breaking- Stealth already gets Ninjitsu, which is very powerful, and Code Breaking is vaguely associated with stealing stuff.

The important part, I think, is adding enough things for each skill to do to make it worthwhile. Mysticism, Insight, and Science all need more applications. Survival needs its application recalibrated, because right now it's too difficult to use.

For Science, I'm thinking about adding some kind of R&D system. If your character has access to a lab you'll be able to pour all kinds of money into developing items.

For Insight, I need to add some detective plots + quests with great rewards, as in GH1. If I can force the random plot generator into some kind of a "Clue"-type minigame, so much the better. Insight should also get used as the "Aha!" skill in conversations; a character with the skill should get the opportunity to have these Sherlock Holmes moments.

For Mysticism, my basic idea is that it should lead to personal development, but I'm not entirely sure how the mechanics of this should work. In GH1, of course, there was the shrine tour. I want something different in GH2; the skill should provide open-ended usage, not just a one-time bonus.

Edit- Here's one idea. Meditating at a shrine doesn't give XP, but provides a temporary stat bonus of some type. The size of the bonus can depend on your skill roll. Different shrines could provide different effects.

Offline Daemonward

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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 07:33:29 AM »
Quoting: Joseph Hewitt
For Mysticism, my basic idea is that it should lead to personal development, but I'm not entirely sure how the mechanics of this should work.


Since it's a sci-fi setting you could have a mystic sci-fi religion like the Force/Scientology, with associated mystic powers/abilities based on midichlorians/thetans.

And of course all practitioners would get a bonus while wielding laser swords.

Offline Joseph Hewitt

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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 08:01:25 PM »
i don't want to add a supernatural element (or at least not an unambiguous one), more something like the Shaolin monks amplified with a bit of anime physics.

Offline Crucifix

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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 03:17:50 AM »
Given that shrines are both rare and random, why not just randomise the stat/skill bonus from every shrine (with the option of specific, special effect shrines). I mentioned before the potential mysticism talent would be the ability to pray "to a shrine" without a shrine being present.

By keeping it random, you can justify fairly high power bonuses (which is necessary - compare it to cyberware, not picking pockets) without the skill being overpowered.

Since the talent is 1 / day, and reproduces normal shrine behaviour anyway, it's good, but not mandatory, depending on how common shrines are in your game.